the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Methinks thou dost protest too much, as your very msg and quoting Ven Buddhadasa shows. You have simply tried a different tactic for to shut down the idea of literal rebirth being taught in the suttas.
Not at all

I just said that If rebirth is true, the next life we would need to practice the same as we would need to do now :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.

Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?
I'm talking about how we react to an idea, a thought, a feeling... and using that for wisdom

And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?
I have no disagreement with them, because all that matters is the here and now
Again, you make my point.
No need to prove theories
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
Twas a post in response you your last post :spy:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:And If I make speak bodly Tilt, It seems you need rebirth (as a hell being after death etc)

Instead of being at peace with or without it being real

For me it doesnt matter either way, my practice is the same
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
Twas a post in response you your last post
Typically nonresponsive.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.

Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
Which is?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
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Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"

As I said It doesnt matter to me either way :) xxx :candle:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"
Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.
As I said It doesnt matter to me either way
And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.
Once again thats your perception of what I am doing :)

And the "here and now/One Mind" talk." is pretty standard teaching that you find at my local monastery (Amaravati)

And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
But once again thats a perception you have, you dont know my mind state friend :)

And even if I was pouring energy into arguing against you, that just proves my point that view points cause dukkha :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
But what it his view?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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