the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:An interesting 10 minute talk by Ajahn Brahm on remembering past lives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnLxndv3I5Q

An interesting video :) I don't agree it's "evidence" however since it's subjective and anecdotal, although the discussion on memory recall after jhana is interesting. Once again though talks likes this do absolutely nothing for me in terms of how to become more aware or how to be free from dukkha/realise nibanna.

It seems these talks are aimed more at strengthening faith for those who may see rebirth as paramount. Now faith in rebirth is good but i see a danger if someone's practice hinges completely on rebirth being true. If so then such a person could become distressed when the view is threatened. They could ignore evidence if it points to the contrary and so they must rely more and more on faith at the expense of truth, or even worse they could give up Buddhism completely if they begin to seriously doubt rebirth.


N.B. I know the above doesn't apply to everyone.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Does your post suggest that you favour the interpretation of rebirth as something that happens moment-to-moment over the more traditional interpretation?

:anjali:
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote:
Does your post suggest that you favour the interpretation of rebirth as something that happens moment-to-moment over the more traditional interpretation?

:anjali:
Mike
Moment to moment makes more sense from experience and from reading the suttas. It's mostly how it's framed in the dhamma talks I listen to as well. The three lifetimes model is a bit to remote for me.


Saying that having a view of rebirth is one of the most advantageous views to have, due to it's ability to instil a good strong morality (which as we know is a central requirement for serious practice). However I don't think it's a necessary view for everyone, regardless of if it's true or not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mkoll »

clw_uk wrote:Also an interesting sutta


It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Contacts Sixfold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named "Contacts Six Fold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."


Khana Sutta - SN
And Ven. T's note for that sutta:
1.
The message here is that in realms where sense objects are totally disagreeable or totally agreeable it is very difficult to practice the holy life, for in the former, one is too distracted by pain; in the latter, too distracted by pleasure.
And here are Ven. Bodhi's notes, quoting the commentary (Spk):
138
Chaphassāyatanikā. Spk: There is no separate hell named "Contact's Sixfold Base," for this designation applies to all thirty-one great hells; but this is said here with reference to the great hell Avīci. At 56:43, a hell so described is referred to as mahāpariḷāha niraya, the Hell of the Great Conflagration.

139
Spk: Here the Tāvatimsa city is intended. What does he show by this? "It isn't possible to live the holy life of the path either in hell, because of extreme suffering, or in heaven, because of extreme pleasure, on account of which negligence arises through continuous amusements and delights. But the human world is a combination of pleasure and pain, so this is the field of action for the holy life of the path. The human state gained by you is the opportunity, the occassion, for living the holy life."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:An interesting 10 minute talk by Ajahn Brahm on remembering past lives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnLxndv3I5Q
An interesting video :) I don't agree it's "evidence" however since it's subjective and anecdotal, although the discussion on memory recall after jhana is interesting. Once again though talks likes this do absolutely nothing for me in terms of how to become more aware or how to be free from dukkha/realise nibanna.
Yes, the jhana aspect is interesting, particularly because there are several suttas which describe a progression from jhana through to recall of former lives. What I also find interesting is the idea that an assumption of multiple lives puts our current life in a quite different perspective.

As for liberation from dukkha, there are different ideas about what dukkha is and when it ceases. See this thread for example: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22288
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

chownah wrote:On another note....are we in agreement that sotapana need not worry about rebirth?
Possibly, depending on what sense of 'worry' you have in mind. The sotāpanna is free of fearful apprehensions about rebirth in the lower realms, for this possibility is now cut off.

He is, however, still subject to worry in a weaker sense of the word, namely, that rebirth is still a subject of concern for him, just as anything that we are fettered to is a subject of concern. Indeed we might even say that rebirth is now more of a concern than it was when he was a puthujjana, for now he entertains no doubts about it. As such, the sotāpanna no longer has access to the sort of fool's equanimity that comes from willing oneself to disbelieve in an afterlife and then thinking such thoughts as:
  • “Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.”
    — Epicurus
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Dhammanando wrote:
chownah wrote:On another note....are we in agreement that sotapana need not worry about rebirth?
Possibly, depending on what sense of 'worry' you have in mind. The sotāpanna is free of fearful apprehensions about rebirth in the lower realms, for this possibility is now cut off.

He is, however, still subject to worry in a weaker sense of the word, namely, that rebirth is still a subject of concern for him.......
........
........
Indeed when I said a sotapana need not worry I meant worry in the sense of being fearful or apprehensive.....So we seem to be in complete agreement on this.

I know that the word "worry" is used differently in american english and british english so there is the chance of a misunderstanding unless this is taken into account. For instance you are using "concern" as a "weaker sense of the word" "worry". Perhaps this is the usual british usage....I don't know. In american english the usual understanding is that "worry" is an emotional reaction to a "concern" while a "concern" is usually taken to have a more intellectual basis.....so from this standpoint it would not be correct to describe a "concern" as being a weaker sense of "worry". A "concern" might be taken to be any of the ongoing elements of the onegoing experience which one tracks for reasons from the frivolous to the absurd to the deadly serious. While these are all "concerns" they do not all elicit "worry".....in fact some of these concerns are tracked because of the pleasant feelings which result from them...nothing at all to do with "worry".
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soapy3
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by soapy3 »

I frequently have dreams where I am talking with people I have known for a long time. Semi-lucid I come to the realization that I do not know those people and I have never been in those surroundings. I realize that the "gut feeling" of just knowing that know them was joined to the situation like pasting a paper hat onto a paper doll. I think a "gut feeling" of just knowing something is true is a thing in itself that can be mistakenly invoked.

I think the best foundation for a personal belief in rebirth would be remembering past lives, where those memories include information you are sure you could not have gotten anywhere else, and that you can verify with some external source.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by soapy3 »

It seems to me that people who claim to remember past lives are presumed guilty until proven incident.

People just assume such people are lying, mentally ill, or are misinterpreting other phenomenon.

I've thought like this too. I think of various yogis and meditators saying that the mind will eventually see what it is trained to see via its beliefs. Hindus see Ganesh statues drinking milk, Christians see the image of Mary in shadows, Buddhists remember past lives, etc.

Though most people who remember past lives are Buddhists or Hindus, there are people who come from cultural backgrounds without rebirth who do remember past lives, and they all aren't "Shirley McClains". The British high court judge Christmas Humphries and General George Patton are some examples.

Maybe Buddhists and Hindus report more such experiences because their cultures allow it and give boxes to put those experiences in. That kind of thing happens with many down to Earth things.

As someone who has had an interest in Buddhism and meditation for years, I do come across people who remember past lives who are emotionally stable, have nothing to gain and who are not looking for attention. I'm also frequently reminded of Dr. Stevenson's works.

I don't think I would ever claim to believe in rebirth until I had memories myself, with information I could not have gotten elsewhere and that I could verify.

I guess I am trying to say that at a "gut level" I am starting to question the assumption that people who make these claims are lying or disturbed.

It is possible that they are misinterpreting another phenomenon as a past life. Maybe they are tapping into a group memory. However that wouldn't explain why only individual people get particular memories and not more than one person. As with everything else, the simpler explanation is usually the better one.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

soapy3 wrote:I am starting to question the assumption that people who make these claims are lying or disturbed.
One approach is to simply withhold judgment until sufficient evidence is brought; there's no need to ad hom the one making the claim.
It is possible that they are misinterpreting another phenomenon as a past life.... As with everything else, the simpler explanation is usually the better one.
Cryptomnesia is one option, and simpler than ones that must posit extraordinary trans-sensual phenomena; since you're done reading Stevenson, read up on Spanos' research with multiple identities and false memories.

Then, ask yourself why e.g. all Canonical past life recall somehow still takes place in Iron Age India...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
soapy3
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by soapy3 »

Then, ask yourself why e.g. all Canonical past life recall somehow still takes place in Iron Age India.
What do you mean by "Canonical past life recall"? How would "Canonical past life recall" differ from other types of past life recall? What is the significance of it happening in the Iron Age in India? Predating Buddhism? Predating Hinduism?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

The past-life recall that's present in the Theravada Canon. Eons and eons ago, there were kings and social structures and technologies of Iron Age India on Earth, even eons ago when the planet hadn't formed yet.

So, it's interesting to notice that.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
soapy3
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by soapy3 »

Hi Dave,

You lost me.

Wikipedia claims that the iron age in India happened about 1200 - 300 BCE. What are you referring to when you say there are claims about it happening before Earth existed? How does that relate to rebirth? Are you trying to say there is doubt about rebirth because people claimed to remember past lives before there were people to have lives?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Then, ask yourself why e.g. all Canonical past life recall somehow still takes place in Iron Age India...

That's an interesting point. It would have been impressive if the Buddha had described a past life on another planet, or in an age with extremely advanced technology.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

soapy3 wrote:Wikipedia claims that the iron age in India happened about 1200 - 300 BCE.
Yes.
What are you referring to when you say there are claims about it happening before Earth existed?
I'm saying that, prior to the formation of the planet, there are claims about past lives occurring which mirror Iron Age India. This is interesting to me, because there was no Iron Age, nor India, unless somehow Iron Age India is a common transition phase for all life in the universe?

Having past life recall hang together with other known facts is not without its problems.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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