lyndon taylor wrote:I could say likewise is belief in Nibbana essential to practice Buddhism? No, but it sure helps, just like believing in rebirth helps a lot of people practice Buddhism, there's probably little doubt that you are being honest when you say it doesn't matter TO YOU whether you believe in rebirth or not, but to think your own belief is so important that it applies to everyone else, that no one can have a stronger practice because they believe in rebirth, is just going way, way to far......
I definitely do *not* believe that belief in rebirth is essential to no one's practice. It is quite clear to me that an understanding of Buddhism that includes belief either that there is rebirth, or that the Buddha taught rebirth, is very useful to very many people. I suspect that the Buddha recognized that belief in rebirth is actually essential to quite a few people.
While we humans may all be the same in the essentials, we each have such different natures and upbringings, that it shouldn't be surprising that we might actually need to come at an understanding of the dhamma through different approaches. I may be alone in seeing it this way, but this is a small part of what I hear the Buddha saying in the simile of the raft -- that each of us builds our own raft-of-understanding to cross from ignorance to insight into the working of the dhamma, and that none of us should cling to the particular model we built so firmly that we go around wearing it as a hat when we get to the other shore, and insisting that our approach, and *only* our approach is the right one.
I am not suggesting that anyone give up an understanding of the dhamma that they find is moving them forward on the path -- far from it -- nor would I want anyone to try to take away from me my understanding of it (though I am always open to hearing arguments that might show me that I am going completely astray). But the world is quite full of people who teach that the Buddha believed in rebirth, and that if you are to get anywhere on this path, you should believe in it too. It is less full of people who believe the Buddha believed in, or at the very least, taught rebirth, but that you don't need to pay attention to that to find success on the path. As far as I know, I am the only one who sees this differently from both groups. I am the only one who, having dug in to try to determine which of the two folks above had the better understanding of what the man was doing with his use of rebirth in his talks, found the answer to lie in the middle: he found a discussion of karma and rebirth to be useful, but I don't find him trying to convince anyone to believe in it (except in rare texts -- like MN 60 where he states positively that there *is* rebirth and that to believe otherwise is wrong view and to teach otherwise is a bad, bad thing -- smack in the middle of his logical argument that it doesn't matter whether what we believe is the actual Cosmic Order or not, what matters is what we do in this life -- thus breaking up the logic of his argument).
There are those I hang out with who believe that huge portions of the suttas are later corruptions, interference by Brahmin disciples. They dismiss all the talk of karma and rebirth. But I think if we throw out that much of the canon, we miss the point, as well as the richness of the man's style in giving those talks. Karma provides a useful way of understanding the dhamma, as does rebirth. But an understanding of Buddhism isn't limited to understanding it through karma and rebirth.
lyndon, the world is full of people who will support you in your understanding of Buddhism as needing rebirth to be a part of it. And just as I would not take that away from anyone because I recognize that different people need to see it in ways different from how I do, I would hope you would practice compassion and allow room for others to see it differently than you do. Some of us require direct evidence for us to develop belief in something -- not taking anyone else's word but our own (though having a second opinion from "the wise" is of course useful) -- and for folks like that, being told that, for the Buddha's system to work, one *must* come to believe in rebirth will prevent them from stepping inside. If what I have found in the suttas is both consistent with what is the core of the Buddha's teaching, and doesn't have a belief-in-rebirth requirement, it might be useful to those who don't have the ability or willingness, due to whatever causes are in their background, to make leaps of faith.
