the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:38 pm

Hi clw_uk,

So would it be correct to say, you don't believe in rebirth, but if given convincing evidence you would believe it?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:11 pm

clw_uk wrote:Hmm well since Buddha Said Dependent Origination occured in the hear and now


He seeing a form with the eye becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely (*11). He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings he appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arises interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (* 12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasantness. Hearing a sound with the ear, cognising a smell with the nose, cognising a taste with the tongue, cognising a touch with the body, cognising an idea with the mind, becomes greedy for a pleasant idea. Becomes averse to a disagreeable idea. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is. Not knowing how thoughts of demerit cease completely. He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings, appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arise interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (*12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasntness.



http://www.vipassana.info/037-culatanha ... tta-e1.htm



As I read it this passage illustrates how tanha and upadana arise dependent on vedana. But I don't see it describing the whole DO process as occuring in the here and now.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:21 pm

The whole process happens without reference to time , Dependant Origination does not happen within a frame work of time. Otherwise time , uniquely, would be independant of DO... time too arises dependantly.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am

PeterB wrote:The whole process happens without reference to time , Dependant Origination does not happen within a frame work of time.


I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby notself » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:27 am

Are you referring to space/time?
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:30 am

Greetings Notself,

I believe Peter is talking about any models of dependent origination which peg the various conditional nidanas into pre-defined time blocks (i.e. this life, previous life, next life)

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If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby VeganLiz » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:27 am

Reincarnation is something I struggle with. I was talking to my meditation teacher he says that all branches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation in one form or another. While I've really become quite taken with Buddhist teachings and have a fondness for meditation...I cannot understand the concept of reincarnation. This man is a Tibetan Buddhist and I am wondering what is the Theravada position on reincarnation.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:33 am

Greetings Liz,

VeganLiz wrote:Reincarnation is something I struggle with. I was talking to my meditation teacher he says that all branches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation in one form or another. While I've really become quite taken with Buddhist teachings and have a fondness for meditation...I cannot understand the concept of reincarnation. This man is a Tibetan Buddhist and I am wondering what is the Theravada position on reincarnation.

If you break it down, the word reincarnation literally means... "Again-in-meat"-tion.

This is certainly not what the Buddha taught.

In the Dhamma there is nothing that is "re"-anything. There are five aggregates of experience (or the six-sense bases and their objects if you prefer that schema), and each is experienced as rise and fall. Just as a river is never the same for two consecutive moments, it makes no sense to speak of "re"-anything.

That said, Theravadins often use the word "rebirth", but it is well caveated that all dhammas (things) are not-self, impermanent and dukkha.

Now, as to precisely what that "rebirth" constitutes and whether it is true or otherwise, hold onto your hat... viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41 (1904 posts in that topic and counting).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby daverupa » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:36 am

Reincarnation is not rebirth. Theravadan Buddhism, generally speaking, has a commitment to rebirth, although there is variegated opinion on whether, and if so then in what ways, such rebirth resembles reincarnation. There are a number of threads on this topic already extant on the forum, which a search should reveal.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby ground » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:38 am

VeganLiz wrote:This man is a Tibetan Buddhist and I am wondering what is the Theravada position on reincarnation.


There may be some tibetan buddhists that do believe in re-incarnation but generally most of them do not.
However re-birth as taught by the Buddha even in the sutta pitaka is accepted by many buddhists, regardless of tradition.

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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby cooran » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:46 am

Hello VL,

These links may be of interest:

Rebirth by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/rebirth.htm
Dhamma without Rebirth by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodh ... ebirth.php

with metta
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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Kare » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:59 am

Only the gullible ones.
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:54 pm

VeganLiz wrote:Reincarnation is something I struggle with. I was talking to my meditation teacher he says that all branches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation in one form or another. While I've really become quite taken with Buddhist teachings and have a fondness for meditation...I cannot understand the concept of reincarnation. This man is a Tibetan Buddhist and I am wondering what is the Theravada position on reincarnation.


Hi Liz;

I'm an agnostic about reincarnation and even nibbana. I'm an atheist. I've been meditating and taking sutta classes at local temples for years. No problems. Buddhists tend to care more about what people do than what they believe.

The Buddhist Publication Society is a Sri Lankan group that makes really cheap pamphlets consisting of translations and or lessons. Their pamphlets are called "Wheels". Years ago I read this one, now online and free, that helped me understand how rebirth differs from reincarnation:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh012-p.html

Basically, Buddhits don't believe in a soul or even a self. Reincarnation is the belief that a soul or self leaves one body and goes to another. Rebirth is the belief that someone's memories, desires and unfinished kamma gets copied to a new life.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:42 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Basically, Buddhits don't believe in a soul or even a self. Reincarnation is the belief that a soul or self leaves one body and goes to another. Rebirth is the belief that someone's memories, desires and unfinished kamma gets copied to a new life.


I think "spread" might be a better word than copied (like a fire). Reincarnation implies that the same self pops up over and over, while rebirth is basically one step removed from that... but still can be confusing for many people. When finally understood, I think it will make a lot of sense.

:anjali:
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Basically, Buddhits don't believe in a soul or even a self. Reincarnation is the belief that a soul or self leaves one body and goes to another. Rebirth is the belief that someone's memories, desires and unfinished kamma gets copied to a new life.


I think "spread" might be a better word than copied (like a fire). Reincarnation implies that the same self pops up over and over, while rebirth is basically one step removed from that... but still can be confusing for many people. When finally understood, I think it will make a lot of sense.

:anjali:


I think rebirth is hard to understand because anatta ( the belief of no souls and no substantive selves or essences ) is a very abstract concept and hard to understand.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby AndrewRayGorman » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:43 pm

I have been curious as to if anyone here has attained the 4th jhana state and been able to verify their past lives? The concept of rebirth is one I have yet to accept, if ever, but otherwise I have accepted most of the rest of the dhamma because I have personally found it to be true.
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:59 pm

When I was in highschool I was so enthusiastic about biology that even though I was a sophomore I was allowed to attend an Anatomy class. The class got a few extra privileges. One day school was dismissed early because of snow. The head of the biology department was a friend of our teacher and a certified hypnotist. He invited the students who had a way home to stay for a hypnosis demonstration. He told us that the human brain is incredibly imaginative, being able to generate complex stories in almost no time. He was able to put one of my classmates into a very deep state of hypnosis. He told the student that he was from the planet Venus, that he was supposed to tell us about his life there and then speak to us in his language (venutian). The student came up with a very detailed account of "his life on venus" and spoke to us in a contrived language that sounded very articulate.

Since then I have been very suspicious of anecdotal accounts of reincarnation or rebirth that were remembered through hypnosis.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Unfortunately, the internet forums (with the exception of one I frequented which is now dead) are not good places to make such statements as there is always someone that will atack you for it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby ground » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:15 pm

AndrewRayGorman wrote:I have been curious as to if anyone here has attained the 4th jhana state and been able to verify their past lives? The concept of rebirth is one I have yet to accept, if ever, but otherwise I have accepted most of the rest of the dhamma because I have personally found it to be true.


I wonder what kind of "I have personally found it to be true" that is if that "I have personally found to be true" does not accomodate "the concept of rebirth".
But perhaps it is because it is (only) "most of the rest" but not the "complete rest" because having found the "complete rest" to be "true" actually might show that the differentiation between the "concept of rebirth" and "the rest" is not supported.


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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:31 pm

Perhaps a thread on this topic could be opened with a constraint: participants would not be allowed (on the thread) to debate the veracity of any claims being made. It would simply provide a venue for those concerned to tell of their experiences.

I have had no such experiences, but would be interested to hear about those of others. The fact that certain claims can be shown to be fraudulent or the product of hypnotic manipulation doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of genuine ones.

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