the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:48 pm

Welcome back Element... :anjali:
Element wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:I would say that rebirth is either implicit or presupposed in all three of these sermons.

I would say that rebirth is not either implicit or presupposed in all three of these sermons.

I would say that rebirth is either implicit or presupposed in all three of these sermons.

Furthermore, I suggest that discussion adjourn to here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3HaRFBSq9k
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

:focus:
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:43 pm

lol great video clip


:clap: :clap:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby Element » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:44 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I would say that rebirth is either implicit or presupposed in all three of these sermons.

For what reasons?

The first sermon is about the extinguishing of craving, which is Nibbana.

The second sermon is realising the three charactertistics, which results in dispassion and Nibbana.

The third sermon is about the same.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated.'"

Now during his utterance, the hearts of those thousand bhikkhus were liberated from taints through clinging no more.

Liberated from taints through clinging no more is something mental.
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:50 pm

Liberated from taints through clinging no more is something mental


Rebirth and samsara is mental so its still liberation from rebirth


If there wasnt repeated birth and death everymoment there would already be no dukkha


:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby Element » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:56 pm

Dhammanando wrote:And don’t try telling me that ‘subject to birth’, ‘subject to aging’ etc. really means subject to the momentary birth and death of the ego, for the same sutta defines these things in graphic physical terms (‘greying’, ‘wrinkling’ etc.).

The suttas state "with birth as a condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering".

If this is taken to mean what Dhammanando is implying, then the only dukkha that afflicts human beings is when they die personally from old age.

Clearly this is incorrect. Even children experience dukkha.

Dhammanando is stating dukkha can only occur when their is 'greying', 'wrinkling', etc.

Following this reasoning, when teenagers commit suicide, it is not due to dukkha because teenagers are not subject to 'greying', 'wrinkling', etc.

:|
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:01 pm

Element wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:And don’t try telling me that ‘subject to birth’, ‘subject to aging’ etc. really means subject to the momentary birth and death of the ego, for the same sutta defines these things in graphic physical terms (‘greying’, ‘wrinkling’ etc.).

The suttas state "with birth as a condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering".

If this is taken to mean what Dhammanando is implying, then the only dukkha that afflicts human beings is when they die personally from old age.

Clearly this is incorrect. Even children experience dukkha.

Dhammanando is stating dukkha can only occur when their is 'greying', 'wrinkling', etc.

Following this reasoning, when teenagers commit suicide, it is not due to dukkha because teenagers are not subject to 'greying', 'wrinkling', etc.

:|




Playing devils advocate here, why do you think the buddha used such statements such as wrinkling skin etc?
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby Element » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:11 pm

clw_uk wrote:Rebirth and samsara is mental so its still liberation from rebirth


Passion is a making of themes, aversion a making of themes, delusion a making of themes. For a monk whose fermentations are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so they are no longer subject to future arising.

Godatta Sutta
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:16 pm

Element wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Rebirth and samsara is mental so its still liberation from rebirth


Passion is a making of themes, aversion a making of themes, delusion a making of themes. For a monk whose fermentations are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so they are no longer subject to future arising.

Godatta Sutta




Yes so samsara has stopped, passion, aversion and delusion belong to a conditioned mind, a conditioned mind is in samsara and so subject to birth and death

When there is complete awareness then there is no more samsara, no more birth and death of a conditioned mind


Metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:18 pm

Element wrote:If this is taken to mean what Dhammanando is implying, then the only dukkha that afflicts human beings is when they die personally from old age.

Venerable Dhammanando did not say that.

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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:29 pm

DarkDream wrote:
...without experiencing with the "divine eye" rebirth of beings and seeing one's own past lives.

Brother.

You are referring to something you are attempting to refute.

All arahants see their past lives.



I have come accross suttas that say otherwise

Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?"

"Yes, friend."



Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

"No, friend."





http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/s ... n12-70.htm



From my understanding of the sutta one doesnt have to have any of the psychic attainments to reach arahantship and arahantship does not give them to you either


Metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:37 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Element wrote:If this is taken to mean what Dhammanando is implying, then the only dukkha that afflicts human beings is when they die personally from old age.

Venerable Dhammanando did not say that.

Metta
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Indubitably...

Another word comes to mind...skewed...
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby Element » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:48 pm

clw_uk wrote:Playing devils advocate here, why do you think the buddha used such statements such as wrinkling skin etc?

To me, in the Four Noble Truths, ageing and death are physical. Dukkha means "difficult to bear". Indeed, ageing and dukkha are difficult to bear however with non-attachment, they can be beared or endured with clear-comprehension.

In Dependent Origination, it is more intriguing.

Clearly, it is spoken in both conventional language and Dhamma language, as illuminated in SN 21.1.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Bhaggas at Crocodile Haunt in the Bhesakala Grove at the Deer Park. Then the householder Nakulapita went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness."

"So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself."

Then the householder Nakulapita, delighting in & approving of the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat and — bowing down to the Blessed One and circumambulating him, keeping him to his right — went to Ven. Sariputta and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Sariputta said to him, "Your faculties are clear & calm, householder, your complexion pure. Have you had the opportunity today of listening to a Dhamma talk in the presence of the Blessed One?"

"How could it be otherwise, lord? I have just now been sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk."

"And how were you sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk?"

"Just now I went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As I was sitting there I said to him, 'Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness.'

"When this was said, the Blessed One said to me, 'So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: "Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted." That is how you should train yourself.' That's how I was sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk."

"But why didn't it occur to you to question the Blessed One further: 'In what way is one afflicted in body & afflicted in mind? And in what way is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind?'

"I would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten me as to their meaning."

"Then in that case, householder, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the householder Nakulapita responded.

Ven. Sariputta said: "Now, how is one afflicted in body & afflicted in mind?

"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He is seized with the idea that 'I am feeling' or 'Feeling is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his feeling changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He is seized with the idea that 'I am perception' or 'Perception is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his perception changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He is seized with the idea that 'I am fabrications' or 'Fabrications are mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his fabrications change & alter, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over their change & alteration.

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

"This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body and afflicted in mind.

"And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind? There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

"He does not assume feeling to be the self...

"He does not assume perception to be the self...

"He does not assume fabrications to be the self...

"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

"This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind."

That is what Ven. Sariputta said. Gratified, the householder Nakulapita delighted in Ven. Sariputta's words.

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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby DarkDream » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:39 am

Element wrote:
DarkDream wrote:...without experiencing with the "divine eye" rebirth of beings and seeing one's own past lives.

Brother.

You are referring to something you are attempting to refute.


Come on Element, go easy on me. I thought we are on the same side. ;)

Element wrote:All arahants see their past lives.


As clw_uk pointed out there is a sutta that seems to suggest you had Arahants that did not have remember their past lives or birth and death of beings.

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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby DarkDream » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:44 am

Peter wrote:
DarkDream wrote:with things like devas and things is that it is a faith where you can never have your doubts resolved.

You know this how?


Peter, come on. Are you actually suggesting that devas are real? I mean, be perfectly honest, do you even know what a deva looks like let alone find one, photograph one and scientifically prove one exists.

As for Mount Meru, we have maps, and pictures from space that show no existence of Mount Meru.

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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:48 am

Depends on how you view devas

There are devas in this world



:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby green » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:53 am

DarkDream wrote:
Peter wrote:
DarkDream wrote:with things like devas and things is that it is a faith where you can never have your doubts resolved.

You know this how?


Peter, come on. Are you actually suggesting that devas are real? I mean, be perfectly honest, do you even know what a deva looks like let alone find one, photograph one and scientifically prove one exists.

As for Mount Meru, we have maps, and pictures from space that show no existence of Mount Meru.

--DarkDream


Can you see atoms and molecules to prove they are real?

If you were given a mathematical proof of molecules and atoms, would you undertand it without a sound education and training in science and math?'

If you don't understand these scientific proofs, then isn't the average person relying on scientists out of faith?

Then why do you assume that the devas will become obvious without sound training in meditation?
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:57 am

Can you see atoms and molecules to prove they are real?


There is a difference, mostly that these are now easy to test and find, devas arent


If you don't understand these scientific proofs, then isn't the average person relying on scientists out of faith?


Yes but you can easily access the material to find out for yourself and the fact multiple people have seen the results and agreed on it adds a lot of weight


Then why do you assume that the devas will become obvious without sound training in meditation?


Buddhist meditation isnt about contacting devas, its about the reality of the present moment



Personally i see any view or opinion about the exsistence or non-exsistence of devas, rebirth after death and the like to be just speculation, we have no knowledge either way do we, its more important to focus on rebirth in this life and the psychological realms and devas etc of there here and now



:anjali:
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:03 am

DarkDream wrote:As clw_uk pointed out there is a sutta that seems to suggest you had Arahants that did not have remember their past lives or birth and death of beings.

I happen to have just been reading this.

SN 2:70 {ii 119} Susima.
Discussed in RF Gombrich, "How Buddhism Began", who claims it has been tampered with...

Metta
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby green » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:06 am

clw_uk wrote:
Can you see atoms and molecules to prove they are real?


There is a difference, mostly that these are now easy to test and find, devas arent


If you don't understand these scientific proofs, then isn't the average person relying on scientists out of faith?


Yes but you can easily access the material to find out for yourself and the fact multiple people have seen the results and agreed on it adds a lot of weight


Then why do you assume that the devas will become obvious without sound training in meditation?


Buddhist meditation isnt about contacting devas, its about the reality of the present moment



:anjali:




So you are seeing scientific "facts" are obvious? That's a fallacy, since it requires science education. I doubt the average person can "just do a test to see molecules"


I find it funny that people uneducated in meditation would doubt the writings of thousands of meditators, but believe the writings of thousands of scientists -- even when they don't understand half of the science they put out.

Buddhism is about the Lok and understanding the Devas is just one such basic understanding - or else you disregard major suttas which are said by Devas. The meditation on Devas is part of the Tipitika and one of the basic meditation observed during the Upasotha.
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Re: Buddhist Rebirth Refuted?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:07 am

I think there are other suttas, will take a look

(whats that book like btw, i got it on order)



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