the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:28 pm

PeterB wrote:I find no need for forcing.
So it may be for you; however, reading through the Buddhadasa followers' msgs in the early part of this thread, it clearly is a forcing of the Dhamma to fit into an highly idiosyncratic point of view based upon Buddhadasa's writings. (And of course, the question for another thread -- someplace far far away from here -- are those Buddhadasa followers accurately reflecting his actual point of view in the their uncompromising anti-rebirth views?)

I have no emotional investment in those teachings however...and no wish to change anyone else's view..
I respect the views of those who have come to a different conclusion to mine.
And in that you are significantly and qualitatively different from what we have seen from some other Buddhadasa followers in this never ending thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:30 pm

Aloka wrote:I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.
She said, expressing a view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:32 pm

Aloka wrote:I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.


Again, how can you possibly know it has no relevance to your practice? Be careful, dear Aloka, that this "no need for a view in either direction" is nothing but an expression of your aversion masked. In which case it has everything to do with your practice.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:43 am

Ben wrote:
Aloka wrote:I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.


Again, how can you possibly know it has no relevance to your practice? Be careful, dear Aloka, that this "no need for a view in either direction" is nothing but an expression of your aversion masked. In which case it has everything to do with your practice.
The statement -- "I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either" -- is a view, and clearly the Buddha taught rebirth. What one does with it is another question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:12 am

Ben wrote:
Aloka wrote:I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.


Again, how can you possibly know it has no relevance to your practice? Be careful, dear Aloka, that this "no need for a view in either direction" is nothing but an expression of your aversion masked. In which case it has everything to do with your practice.

Ben,
Aversion to what?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:21 am

Greetings Chownah,

Presumably aversion to what one perceives as superstition.

"Superstitious faith is the kind of faith the devil has" (James 2:19)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:25 am

Aloka wrote:
I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.

Some people have the view that it will rain tomorrow...some people have the view that it will not rain tomorrow....I will be working inside all day tomorrow and I'm too busy working inside today to even formulate a view as to whether it will rain tomorrow or not....and it has no relevance to what I'm going to do....

Seems like the same thing to me....seems to make sense...I guess....
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:50 am

chownah wrote:Aloka wrote:
I find no need for a view in either direction and such views have no relevance to my practice either.

Some people have the view that it will rain tomorrow...some people have the view that it will not rain tomorrow....I will be working inside all day tomorrow and I'm too busy working inside today to even formulate a view as to whether it will rain tomorrow or not....and it has no relevance to what I'm going to do....

Seems like the same thing to me....seems to make sense...I guess....
chownah
If based upon good information, I have the view that it will rain tomorrow, I may act upon such a view and carry an umbrella and not get wet.

That I have a permanent self, is a view. It may be articulated with notions of a soul or some such thing, but it is also driven by the internal structure of the khandhas that gives rise to it. Based upon my dissatisfaction with things in life and based upon the Buddha's teaching, I may adopt and act upon a view that I can be free of the problems of the self-view. Views can be very useful tools.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Presumably aversion to what one perceives as superstition.

"Superstitious faith is the kind of faith the devil has" (James 2:19)

There's a lot in the Tipitika that some would say is superstition and others would say is effective practice:
The Buddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... call-devas wrote: "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when gold is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is gold cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of a furnace, salt earth, red chalk, a blow-pipe, tongs, & the appropriate human effort. This is how gold is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas... As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Deva-Uposatha. He lives with the devas. It is owing to the devas that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:11 am

Greetings Mike,

Indeed - hence the word "perceive".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:38 am

And since this thead is geting rather long and repetitive I'll just point to some quotes I gave last year from Ajahn Sumedo and Ajahn Buddhadhasa on rebirth:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97581
Ajahn Buddhadhas (in common with others such as Ven Nanananda and Ven Nanavira) certainly argues that dependent origination is not about rebirth, but that's quite a different issue.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:And since this thead is geting rather long and repetitive I'll just point to some quotes I gave last year from Ajahn Sumedo and Ajahn Buddhadhasa on rebirth:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&hilit=mikenz66&start=1660#p97581
Ajahn Buddhadhas (in common with others such as Ven Nanananda and Ven Nanavira) certainly argues that dependent origination is not about rebirth, but that's quite a different issue.

:anjali:
Mike
The reality is, of course, conditioned co-production is also not not about rebirth, either.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:03 am

For me the main point is what happens on the cushion.
I think we should be inclusive.
Whether we are talking about diet or whether we are talking about models of punabhava we should in my view include all in order to point them to the meditation cushion.
I worry about the idea of a series of hoops that people need to go through in order to reach the cushion...
The cushion will teach us...with a little help from teachers qualified to do so.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:36 am

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:The cushion will teach us...with a little help from teachers qualified to do so.

Who is talking about hoops? I was simply examining what some famous teachers actually say...

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Akuma » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:58 am

acinteyyo wrote:I still don't understand your line of thought. I think you are approaching this with way to much implied baggage.
As I see it it doesn't imply that at all. "Birth after death" means to me nothing more than "birth after death" (with "birth" and "death" understood as defined by the Buddha) and this actually is my question, why should we take it for more than that?
You're the one implying all this stuff, especially the notion "after YOUR death" which is imo a huge hindrance to understand what I'm trying to point out.


What I mean is that if you simply say birth (without "defined by the Buddha") then if you die there will beings be born like ducks and rabbits and mice and other humans and there is no causal connection between your ignorance and theirs... Therefore I pointed towards the german fellow with the idiotic view and that was what my critique aims at.
If you take is at its defined in buddhist philosophy then I dont see a reason to call it birth, you dont gain anything from that apart from that its two characters less. Birth is still re-birth because its a re-arising of dukkha after a breakdown of a khanda-setup in a specific citta-santana, or easier its rebirth because the stream brought forth birth before.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:And since this thead is geting rather long and repetitive I'll just point to some quotes I gave last year from Ajahn Sumedo and Ajahn Buddhadhasa on rebirth:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 660#p97581
Ajahn Buddhadhas (in common with others such as Ven Nanananda and Ven Nanavira) certainly argues that dependent origination is not about rebirth, but that's quite a different issue.

:anjali:
Mike
The reality is, of course, conditioned co-production is also not not about rebirth, either.


Could you clarify your distinction between conditioned co-production and dependent orgination?

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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:43 am

Lazy_eye wrote:Sometimes, in the course of trying to gain a better understanding of an issue, it can be helpful to explore each side of a position, testing its strengths and drawbacks. Having someone at hand who can argue a contrasting position and point out the problems with one's own can also be very beneficial -- again, if the goal is to try and improve one's understanding. Not so much if the desire is to find an echo chamber for one's preconceptions.



I agree. It is helpful to consider different ways of looking at things.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:50 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Could you clarify your distinction between conditioned co-production and dependent orgination?
Different translations of paticcasamuppāda.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:38 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:The cushion will teach us...with a little help from teachers qualified to do so.

Who is talking about hoops? I was simply examining what some famous teachers actually say...

:anjali:
Mike

I was not addressing the point that you were making Mike...With which I am in agreement.


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:53 pm

PeterB wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:The cushion will teach us...with a little help from teachers qualified to do so.

Who is talking about hoops? I was simply examining what some famous teachers actually say...

:anjali:
Mike

I was not addressing the point that you were making Mike...With which I am in agreement.
What point were you addressing?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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