the great rebirth debate

[tiltbillings]

So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?

There's a whole thread about this elsewhere, within which I've posted. You can look there for my particular response.

I was asking you here in this context. As to the other thread, don't which one it is, so looking in it would be rather difficult.

[BlueLotus]

Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?

Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this?

[tiltbillings]

Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?

Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this?

It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).

[Zom]

Wow. 128 pages




Here are my 5 cents:

There is a rebirth.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

There is a rebirth.

... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro.

[Fede]

......
But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I hate to go all "Dr. Phil" on you, but one of his fine lessons is to turn to the person paralysed by the "What if..." question, and say -
"People always ask the "What if" question - but they never answer it, or accept the obvious! So take your 'what if' question, and answer it!"

So, ok BlueLotus, Answer the question for yourself:

What IF there IS no rebirth? What IF life ends after Death?

So what?
What can you do about it?

[manas]

Hello all,

Constant rebirth is scary .... this wandering-on in Samsara.

But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I'm going out on a limb here, and guessing that the majority of people here (and in the Buddhist world in general) have not directly seen for themselves how beings pass away and reappear according to their kamma, but rather (like myself) have faith in the Buddha's description of that, with that faith based on the fact that he seems to be right about everything else (ie, how the mind functions, how to become truly happier and at peace, etc...)

manas.

cooran, I just saw your request. sorry but I had already written this (off topic) answer...

[chownah]

]
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro.

retrofuturist,
is this a paraphrase of a Donavan lyric?
chownah

[chownah]

But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah

[daverupa]

But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah

Ending suffering is the goal. Saying that the goal is ending rebirth is to take one particular explication of suffering (samsara) as total when the first noble truth says a bit more on the matter.

[Zom]

Then there is no holy life, no path leading to the cessation of suffering, no Arahants who have put an end to rebirth, and no end to craving, aversion, and delusion. If life ends at death, then suffering ends at death, and there is no difference between an Arahant and an ordinary confused human being — both will attain the end of suffering at death.

[tiltbillings]

]
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro.

retrofuturist,
is this a paraphrase of a Donavan lyric?
chownah

Yes, and this is a paraphrase of a Zen saying.

[Mr Man]

It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).

I guess it's kind of similar to the possibility that Buddhist monasticism is intrinsically sexist.

Where we are standing today do we need to have a good look to see if literal rebirth is still a relevant teaching in the same way that we look at continued gender discrimination as being unacceptable? Are these two things something that belong in a different age? Or are they fundamental?

[BlueLotus]

But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah

Does what frighten me?

[BlueLotus]

What IF there IS no rebirth? What IF life ends after Death?

So what?
What can you do about it?

No idea. If I knew that I wouldn't open the thread in the first place

[Jhana4]

Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanisarro Bhikku are both Americans. Ajahn Brahm is from the U.K.. All three men are exceptionally intelligent and are very, very, very well educated. Interestingly, despite the western upbringing, the intelligence and the education all 3 have a strong belief in rebirth.

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.

I've had the experience in my life of becoming more friendly to a belief I don't share when surrounded by people who have that belief. All of these men are monks who are surrounded by people heavily invested in a belief in rebirth. To list another reason, a crude one, people tend to "talk from their pay check". The nuclear power plant worker tends to know what the good arguments are for nuclear power. I *think* all 3 men for significant periods of their "careers" were supported by an Asian community. A community that would not be friendly to a monk being out in the open about a disbelief in rebirth. I imagine there are such monks, but they are quiet about their beliefs.

All 3 men also seem to be in their mid 50s - mid 60s, a time in a person's life when they can see the time left in their life passing quickly and the idea of dying being more than an abstraction of "someday" the way it is for the young.

The last possibility is that all 3 men have had religious experiences, for lack of a better term, that they have not told people about. It has been my experience that connected with any large community of people who meditate in an Eastern style, there is always a person who at least claims to know someone, who knows someone who had a deep personal experience they will not share in detail, but who will emphatically reassure their friend not to worry about death. Maybe this is the case with these 3 men ( and what I would like to believe ).

I'm posting this in the "great rebirth debate" thread, but I am changing the title. If it ends up in its own thread please feel free to move it.

[kirk5a]

Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanisarro Bhikku are both Americans. Ajahn Brahm is from the U.K.. All three men are exceptionally intelligent and are very, very, very well educated. Interestingly, despite the western upbringing, the intelligence and the education all 3 have a strong belief in rebirth.

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.

It seems both the polite and scientifically rigorous thing to do, would be to ask them directly, rather than engaging in dubious speculation about the genesis of their beliefs.

[Zom]

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.

Because the Blessed One is Supreme, the Dhamma is Supreme and Sangha is Supreme ,)
That is why.

[Jhana4]

Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanisarro Bhikku are both Americans. Ajahn Brahm is from the U.K.. All three men are exceptionally intelligent and are very, very, very well educated. Interestingly, despite the western upbringing, the intelligence and the education all 3 have a strong belief in rebirth.

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.

It seems both the polite and scientifically rigorous thing to do, would be to ask them directly, rather than engaging in dubious speculation about the genesis of their beliefs.

I don't know if they would give completely honest answers ( they don't owe me anything ) or answer me at all, but I think that is an excellent idea.
Thank You. I'm sure I can find some sort of contact link.

[tiltbillings]

It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).

I guess it's kind of similar to the possibility that Buddhist monasticism is intrinsically sexist.

Where we are standing today do we need to have a good look to see if literal rebirth is still a relevant teaching in the same way that we look at continued gender discrimination as being unacceptable? Are these two things something that belong in a different age? Or are they fundamental?

There are two questions here. Did the Buddha teach rebirth? The texts are quite clear: yes.

The second question relates to your comment: What to do with it?