Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

daverupa wrote: Briefly, it's primarily intended to support the idea that one can have attained to right view without any view on rebirth; that right view can be conveyed without rebirth-talk at all (this conclusion is also borne out by MN 9 as well as others). The context of saying that "disbelief in rebirth is a view" is the secondary target; to disbelieve there is flying teacup around Jupiter is to refrain from such a view on account of poor evidence, but it is not making a counter-claim that such a teacup is certainly impossible or certainly nonexistent.

Alex123 wrote: There it clearly says what I was saying.

nowheat wrote: So what I hear you saying is that because Anathapindika was talking about what is right view, and he did not include rebirth in that right view, rebirth is not a necessary part of right view. Sariputta does the same in MN 9. Do I understand that correctly?

• Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed the Blessed One with this verse: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nowheat wrote:The Buddha says that even if there is no rebirth, following the dhamma is a good thing.

Alex123 wrote:
Again. First of all you liberate yourself, then help others.

• "Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire[23] should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... -mn-008-23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There it clearly says what I was saying.

Alex123 wrote: And what do suttas state?

• Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed the Blessed One with this verse: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another instance of rebirth in the suttas. Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda were instructing Anathapindika the householder on his death bed. Anathapindika the householder died, died, and was reborn (reappeared) as deva in Tusita heaven.

nowheat wrote: But I am not asking what you are saying. I am asking if you disagree with the Buddha. The Buddha says that even if there is no rebirth, following the dhamma is a good thing. I am asking if you disagree with the Buddha. It's actually a "yes or no" question.

• "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Bhikkhus, suppose there was a man with a lifespan of a hundred years, who could live a hundred years. Someone would say to him: ‘Come, good man, in the morning they will strike you with a hundred spears; at noon they will strike you with a hundred spears; in the evening they will strike you with a hundred spears. And you, good man, being struck day after day by three hundred spears will have a lifespan of a hundred years, will live a hundred years; and then, after a hundred years have passed, you will make the breakthrough to the four noble truths, to which you had not broken through earlier.
“It is fitting, bhikkhus, for a clansman intent on his good to accept the offer. For what reason? Because this saμsåra, bhikkhus, is without discoverable beginning; a first point cannot be discerned of blows by spears, blows by swords, blows by axes. And even though this may be so, bhikkhus, I do not say that the breakthrough to the four noble truths is accompanied by suffering or displeasure. Rather, bhikkhus, the breakthrough to the four noble truths is accompanied only by happiness, accompanied only by joy. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of
suffering. “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ … An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’” BB Transl. - SN 56.35 (5) A Hundred Spears

nowheat wrote: And who is it who says that Anathapindika the householder ended up a deva in Tusita heaven. Who do you find is speaking in that part of the sutta?

• Then when the night had past, The Blessed One addressed the monks: "Last night, monks, a certain deva's son in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, came to me and, on arrival, bowed down to me and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed me with this verse:... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alex123 wrote:

nowheat wrote: And who is it who says that Anathapindika the householder ended up a deva in Tusita heaven. Who do you find is speaking in that part of the sutta?

The Buddha has said it and Ananda remembered.

"What do you think, Anuruddha? What purpose does the Tathagata see that when a disciple has died, he declares his reappearance thus: 'So-and-so has reappeared in such-and-such a place...'?"

"Anuruddha, it is not for the purpose of scheming to deceive people or for the purpose of flattering people or for the purpose of gain, honour, or renown, or with the thought, 'Let people know me to be thus,' that when a disciple has died, the Tathagata declares his reappearance... Rather, it is because there are faithful clansmen inspired and gladdened by what is lofty, who when they hear that, direct their minds to such a state, and that leads to their welfare and happiness for a long time."
-- MN 68

rowboat wrote:I'm sorry Kirk5a, I've scoured the web and I haven't found the original source. I remember the information being from an interview with someone from Suan Mokkh or from an article looking at the period between Ven. Buddhadasa's stroke and his death. I'll have a look again later.

Alex123 wrote:

Notron wrote: ... If the Buddha taught the absence of an ego (anatta), then what is migrating from one life to the next?

If the Buddha taught the absence of an ego (anatta), then what receives results of practice?

mikenz66 wrote:

rowboat wrote:I'm sorry Kirk5a, I've scoured the web and I haven't found the original source. I remember the information being from an interview with someone from Suan Mokkh or from an article looking at the period between Ven. Buddhadasa's stroke and his death. I'll have a look again later.

These talks by Santikaro (formerly Ven Santikaro, and translator for Ven Buddhadasa) may be of interest:
http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/129/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's been a while since I listened to them, but he gives an interesting account of Ven Buddhadasa's hospitalization and eventual death.

I think there are some questions towards the end about the issue of Ven Buddhadasa's opinions on rebirth.


Mike

Ñāṇa wrote:

nowheat wrote:The Buddha says that even if there is no rebirth, following the dhamma is a good thing.

You're misunderstanding the passage in question. The Buddha does not deny rebirth.

nowheat wrote:You are misreading me. I do not say that the Buddha denies rebirth.