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Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:49 pm
by Jechbi
Howdy clw,
clw_uk wrote:Through practice i have seen how clinging to khandas brings "I am" and how that "I am" through clinging to the khandas brings sorrow, anger etc via anicca. I have understood how, through ignorance, the taints and a lack of wisdom, that very clinging comes to be via craving and how that craving will lead onto more clinging (and so I am) and so more dukkha (via anicca). What i havent been able to do is watch the whole process from start to finish and my understanding of it is not in full and for the moment its just be in relation to clinging to rupa
Interesting. These strike me as wonderful things to see and understand through practice. I don't know that I could make such a bold statement.
:anjali:

Have you likewise through practice been able to understand how craving is conditioned by sensation? And so on? There are a few other thingies going on "in relation to clinging to rupa," as you put it.
clw_uk wrote:I have also understood, via this and also sutta study, how any view or opinion in reguards to future or past is just coming to be via clinging to a khanda (or all of them), how any view of past or future is coloured by "I am", and how rebirth view falls into this category of looking to future or past
For you.

What you have understood for yourself might not be applicable for others.

Metta
:smile:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:03 pm
by Ceisiwr
Greetings

Have you likewise through practice been able to understand how craving is conditioned by sensation? And so on? There are a few other thingies going on "in relation to clinging to rupa," as you put it.
Only on a very basic level, im aware more is going on :smile: i dont claim to be a stream-winner or an arahant or anything


Metta

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:57 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
In Craig's defense, (though I'm not a big fan of this particular teaching) Craig's assertion that the six realms are visible right here in front of us is fairly common. Personally I don't think the Buddha would have gone to such lengths to describe the realms if he was only speaking metaphorically, but if it's useful to someone to look at it that way, I say go for it. If it's helpful.

:anjali:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:14 pm
by pink_trike
Ngawang Drolma wrote: Personally I don't think the Buddha would have gone to such lengths to describe the realms if he was only speaking metaphorically, but if it's useful to someone to look at it that way, I say go for it. If it's helpful.

:anjali:
Some folks don't think that "The Buddha" actually did go to such lengths as to describe the realms. :anjali:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:00 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
pink_trike wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote: Personally I don't think the Buddha would have gone to such lengths to describe the realms if he was only speaking metaphorically, but if it's useful to someone to look at it that way, I say go for it. If it's helpful.

:anjali:
Some folks don't think that "The Buddha" actually did go to such lengths as to describe the realms. :anjali:
Oh no, please don't make me do homework! :P

I know there's a lot of suttas discussing the realms.

:anjali:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:02 pm
by pink_trike
Ngawang Drolma wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote: Personally I don't think the Buddha would have gone to such lengths to describe the realms if he was only speaking metaphorically, but if it's useful to someone to look at it that way, I say go for it. If it's helpful.

:anjali:
Some folks don't think that "The Buddha" actually did go to such lengths as to describe the realms. :anjali:
Oh no, please don't make me do homework! :P

I know there's a lot of suttas discussing the realms.

:anjali:
Yes, the suttas do discusss the realms, and that discussion is valuable to a lot of people.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:45 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
pink_trike wrote: Some folks don't think that "The Buddha" actually did go to such lengths as to describe the realms. :anjali:
Oh no, please don't make me do homework! :P

I know there's a lot of suttas discussing the realms.

:anjali:
Yes, the suttas do discusss the realms, and that discussion is valuable to a lot of people.
:anjali:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:51 pm
by mikenz66
Craig:This is what i mean by specualtive view, by attending unwisely the views come to be and via attending unwisely they continue to remain
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
The highlighted section suggests that attending unwisely on the present moment is just as bad as attending unwisely on the past and the future...

Metta
Mike

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:06 pm
by Ceisiwr
mikenz66 wrote:
Craig:This is what i mean by specualtive view, by attending unwisely the views come to be and via attending unwisely they continue to remain
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
The highlighted section suggests that attending unwisely on the present moment is just as bad as attending unwisely on the past and the future...

Metta
Mike

Hey mike

True those questions are about now and not past or future (for the most part) but I take it as meaning that asking those questions are unwise since they reinforce ego, they are searching for a self. They are from craving and clinging and so are from ignorance, craving and clinging to that which is unsatisfactory (and so there is ignorance of 4NT). One who is unskilled in Dhamma and has no knowledge of Buddhadhamma would ask such questions, but the Buddha taught the wisdom of not attending to such inappropriate questions and instead focus on what is and investigate that (right view/understanding)

So instead of speculative, ponderous questions (that only reinforces delusion) one should focus on what is, there is dukkha, there is origin on dukkha, there is quenching of dukkha and there is way to quench all dukkha

Metta

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:14 pm
by pink_trike
clw_uk wrote: So instead of speculative, ponderous questions (that only reinforces delusion) one should focus on what is, there is dukkha, there is origin on dukkha, there is quenching of dukkha and there is way to quench all dukkha
Agreed.

"Know this, O monks, now, as formerly, I teach of only Dukkha, and Nirodha.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:27 pm
by mikenz66
clw_uk wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: The highlighted section suggests that attending unwisely on the present moment is just as bad as attending unwisely on the past and the future...
True those questions are about now and not past or future (for the most part) but I take it as meaning that asking those questions are unwise since they reinforce ego, they are searching for a self. They are from craving and clinging and so are from ignorance, craving and clinging to that which is unsatisfactory (and so there is ignorance of 4NT). One who is unskilled in Dhamma and has no knowledge of Buddhadhamma would ask such questions, but the Buddha taught the wisdom of not attending to such inappropriate questions and instead focus on what is and investigate that (right view/understanding)
Yes, but you seem to be applying quite a lot of attention to worrying about this issue. That's why these threads kept being reborn...
clw_uk wrote: So instead of speculative, ponderous questions (that only reinforces delusion) one should focus on what is, there is dukkha, there is origin on dukkha, there is quenching of dukkha and there is way to quench all dukkha
Again, you seem to have an extremely fixed view on how everyone else should be approaching this. And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, I don't believe that anyone here really understands how to quench all dukkha (I certainly don't), all we've done is read/heard the instruction manual...

As the Sutta states, unwise attention in the present moment is very effective at feeding the sense of self.

Metta
Mike

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:09 pm
by Ceisiwr
Hey
Yes, but you seem to be applying quite a lot of attention to worrying about this issue. That's why these threads kept being reborn...
I dont worry about it :smile: , im just saying what the suttas states is wise and unwise attention and the views that come from that, the only reason i keep stating it is because they are important to a persons practice


Again, you seem to have an extremely fixed view on how everyone else should be approaching this. And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, I don't believe that anyone here really understands how to quench all dukkha (I certainly don't), all we've done is read/heard the instruction manual...

As the Sutta states, unwise attention in the present moment is very effective at feeding the sense of self.
I Agree, there is an instruction manual which does state what is wise and what is unwise attention as part of that instruction, right attention is to what is and investigation into that, unwise attention such as rebirth view involves the questions that are unwise
This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?'
As the Sutta states, unwise attention in the present moment is very effective at feeding the sense of self
i agree anyone who asks those questions (any of them in fact) is only feeing a sense of self

Metta

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:30 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
Doesn't 'wise attention in the present moment' just mean be mindful?

:smile:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:38 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Drolma,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:Doesn't 'wise attention in the present moment' just mean be mindful?

:smile:
Not necessarily... think of a sniper for a moment.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: the great rebirth debate

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:43 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:Doesn't 'wise attention in the present moment' just mean be mindful?

:smile:
Not necessarily... think of a sniper for a moment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Nice! Very true :anjali: