Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

binocular wrote:

dharmagoat wrote:Someone with an empirical understanding of phenomena will have difficulty accepting a view that is based on inference and not supported by evidence. Likewise, someone with a religious understanding will have difficulty accepting a view that is in conflict with their chosen beliefs.

It's still not clear what the problem is here that you are pointing at.
??

Religious people believe what their religion says.
People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.

IMHO.

So?
Where's the problem in that?

binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?

Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.

dharmagoat wrote:

binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?

Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.

Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...

daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...

Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.

Well, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I take an approach, outlined in some respects earlier in this thread, which avoids the quandary you've outlined, but it differs in some fundamental ways from your own approach, so it may be of limited usefulness.

Thanks for the clarification.

dharmagoat wrote:Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.

Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.

dharmagoat wrote:

daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...

Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.

no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about

Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.

Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?

5heaps wrote: no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.

What do you mean by "proper material"?

dharmagoat wrote:

binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?

Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.

No.

They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.


Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html

5heaps wrote:no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about

My reading on these subjects has been very scant.

What books do you recommend?

binocular wrote:They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.

Yes, I now admit this quite regularly and it definitely circumvents both confusion and doubt.

binocular wrote:Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html

I will, many thanks for the link.

porpoise wrote:

Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.

Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?

If you mean nibbāna-without-remainder, no. However absence of consciousness after death is less problematic than its eternal presence.

Ñāṇa wrote:Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.

Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.