the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

binocular wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:Someone with an empirical understanding of phenomena will have difficulty accepting a view that is based on inference and not supported by evidence. Likewise, someone with a religious understanding will have difficulty accepting a view that is in conflict with their chosen beliefs.
It's still not clear what the problem is here that you are pointing at.
??
Religious people believe what their religion says.
People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.

IMHO.
binocular
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

So?
Where's the problem in that?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
dharmagoat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

dharmagoat wrote:
binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.
Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
dharmagoat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...
Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Well, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I take an approach, outlined in some respects earlier in this thread, which avoids the quandary you've outlined, but it differs in some fundamental ways from your own approach, so it may be of limited usefulness.

Thanks for the clarification.

:hug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

dharmagoat wrote:Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.
5heaps
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by 5heaps »

dharmagoat wrote:
daverupa wrote:Saying "confident of the benefits" alongside "wracked with doubt" seems contradictory...
Belief in rebirth provides an additional layer of meaning and purpose to our lives, motivates us to practice, and is an inextricable part of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha also taught the importance of critical thinking, which, when applied, can cast doubt on the literal existence of rebirth.
no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

5heaps wrote: no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
What do you mean by "proper material"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
binocular
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

dharmagoat wrote:
binocular wrote:So?
Where's the problem in that?
Have you ever found yourself wanting to believe in rebirth, confident of the benefits that such a belief brings, but, because of your trust in critical thinking, were so wracked with doubt that you were unable to even play along?

It's a problem.
No.

They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.


Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
dharmagoat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

5heaps wrote:no, if you study proper material the opposite happens.
you should also study the history of buddhisn and indian logic so you can have some clue about what youre talking about
My reading on these subjects has been very scant.

What books do you recommend?
dharmagoat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmagoat »

binocular wrote:They say humility is what keeps one from being humiliated. And while I certainly can't take any credit for whatever humility I may have, I am fortunate enough to occasionally say "I don't know about this, I don't understand that" and mean it. It does wonders against confusion and doubt.
Yes, I now admit this quite regularly and it definitely circumvents both confusion and doubt.
binocular wrote:Also, you might want to take a studious look at William James' Will to believe - http://educ.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html
I will, many thanks for the link.
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote: People who go by empiric evidence have difficulty believing what religion states when there is no solid proof.
Is there "solid proof" of nibbana?
If you mean nibbāna-without-remainder, no. However absence of consciousness after death is less problematic than its eternal presence.
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:Faith and critical thinking can also be applied together. Faith and discernment are two of the five faculties.
Faith is belief in something that has no sufficient evidence. If there was evidence, you wouldn't need to have faith - you would know.
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