the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 2:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:So without the brain, there is no consciousness..


I would say without a brain.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 2:16 pm

Lazy_eye wrote: You first need to establish that consciousness has a non-biological cause.


Doesn't DO say that effectively mind and body are mutually dependent? Which sort of makes sense because a body without consciousness is just a ( dead ) lump of flesh.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby dxm_dxm » Mon May 13, 2013 2:20 pm

k. But that doesn't prove much. Many aspects of the universe seem counterintuitive. For example, ancient people thought it was counterintuitive to believe that the earth revolved around the sun. Many people thought it was counterintuitive to think the earth was round. Several notable plane crashes (Air France 447, for example) resulted from pilots relying on intuition instead of on their instruments and training.


well you got a point here. I'll try not to use arguments like that in the future

But some people would say the cause is entirely physical. "You" exist because of the reproductive process, which results in an embryo that develops a brain, which sustains consciousness. When the brain dies, the cause is destroyed and thus you no longer exist.

Can you refute this explanation?

I do not think you understand the implications of this.

If you exist here in this state out of pure chance (why not be a mosquito etc.) and the only cause is the physical cause, just think about the implications of this.

This implies that YOU will 100% be reborn in another almost infinitly posibilites of existance. This is because the physical cause that bring you here will, with an 100% chance of success reborn you for an infinite number of times because that physical cause has an exact 100% chance of happening for an infinite amount of times over the course of infinite time. Like a monkey writing a shekspeare drama over the course of infinite typing at a computer that biological cause happening for infinity will eventually give rise to a complex sistem of electrons, fotons etc. that will give rise to a conciousness that will create you. The money typing at a computer is typing an infinite amount of words every second because there can exist an infinite number of universes just like ours. This idea also implies rebirth.

The only difference is that in this case, the rebirth is entirely random while in the context of karma it is not random but both lead to rebirth as the logical conclusion. Why this proces of rebirth is not random and is subject to the law of karma is another discussion as I said and it can not be solved using intelectual thiking, as least nobody managed to do that untill now. I am not a master in meditation to tell you that I found out for myself that law of karma is true/false or if meditation can provide us that answer, it is up to us to find out.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:21 pm

porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So without the brain, there is no consciousness..


I would say without a brain.


Ok. In any case, if a certain brain is required for certain consciousness, then when the brain is gone, so is the consciousness dependent on it.

porpoise wrote:Doesn't DO say that effectively mind and body are mutually dependent? Which sort of makes sense because a body without consciousness is just a ( dead ) lump of flesh.


And if mind depends on the body, then when the body ceases, so does mind dependent on it.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:26 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:If you exist here in this state out of pure chance (why not be a mosquito etc.) and the only cause is the physical cause, just think about the implications of this.


It is NOT pure chance but billion of years of evolution on molecular and higher levels, plus the world developing in cause->effect for >12 billion years after Big Bang. There are specific reasons why you, I, and someone else was born.

dxm_dxm wrote:This implies that YOU will 100% be reborn in another almost infinitly posibilites of existance.


For that to occur, your brain and its function would have to be totally duplicated. If the brain and its function develops according to the genetics that father and mother gave, then they would somehow have to appear again to give birth to you again. So would their parents, and parents of those, etc.

Basically the exact same Big Bang would have to occur if everything develops strictly according to cause->effect in order for you to be reborn. But the question is:
How is that different from the life you live now?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby dxm_dxm » Mon May 13, 2013 2:28 pm

Ok. In any case, if a certain brain is required for certain consciousness, then when the brain is gone, so is the consciousness dependent on it.

And when a new brain apeares, so will a new consciousness apear. Using the same "monkey typing at a computer" argument one of those many new consciousness will create an ilusion of alex identical to the ilusion existing now, thus been the same person "reborn somewhere else".

For that to occur, your brain and its function would have to be totally duplicated. If the brain and its function develops according to the genetics that father and mother gave, then they would somehow have to appear again to give birth to you again. So would their parents, and parents of those, etc.


And what is the chance of this happening over the course of infinite time ? What is the number of times this should resonably happen over the course of infinite time ?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:29 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
Ok. In any case, if a certain brain is required for certain consciousness, then when the brain is gone, so is the consciousness dependent on it.

And when a new brain apeares, so will a new consciousness apear.


And how do we know that it is not a different person that is born?

dxm_dxm wrote:And what is the chance of this happening over the course of infinite time ? What is the number of times this should resonably happen over the course of infinite time ?


If universe totally repeats itself infinite amount of time, we will not feel the difference.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby dxm_dxm » Mon May 13, 2013 2:32 pm

And how do we know that it is not a different person that is born?

Because it has the same complex physical sistem that gave rise to your conciousness right now. Acording to budhism it is not the same nor is it different, like the flame of a candle light up from another candle.

Keep in mind we are talking in the context of the cause been purelly biological.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:35 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:Because it has the same complex physical sistem that gave rise to your conciousness right now.


No, it does not. Your brain's "first person perspective" is different from mine, hence why we have different consciousness. I can't cognize what you cognize, and you cannot cognize what I cognize. To you, Alex is external and dxm_dxm is internal. To me, Alex is internal and dxm_dxm is external.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby dxm_dxm » Mon May 13, 2013 2:42 pm

No, it does not. Your brain's "first person perspective" is different from mine, hence why we have different consciousness. I can't cognize what you cognize, and you cannot cognize what I cognize. To you, Alex is external and dxm_dxm is internal. To me, Alex is internal and dxm_dxm is external.

As a side note, science was able to deponstrate that we are all interconected and basically the same thing. Science also demonstrated the self to be an ilusion. Science was also able to demonstrate that this univers exist only as a realm of infinite posibilities and the pure act of observation creating it (prob you also know about the famous double slide experiment also) all these discoveries confirming budhism view witch was able to find this out using the meditation method. These is shocking enough to make you give some credit to it.

This was a side note, it has nothing to do with what we are talking.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 pm

Alex123 wrote:And if mind depends on the body, then when the body ceases, so does mind dependent on it.


Well, that particular mind anyway.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 2:55 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:And when a new brain apears, so will a new consciousness apear.


According to the suttas, name-and-form ( including the brain ) is dependent on consciousness, not the other way around.

For example here in DN15:

"Name-and-form
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"
"No, lord."
"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"
"No, lord."
"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:58 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:As a side note, science was able to deponstrate that we are all interconected and basically the same thing.


Interconnected in a certain sense, sure. I can write this and you can read this.

dxm_dxm wrote: Science also demonstrated the self to be an ilusion.


Perception of self depends on specific function of the brain. Body and Brain will die...

dxm_dxm wrote:Science was also able to demonstrate that this univers exist only as a realm of infinite posibilities and the pure act of observation creating it


There are multiple interpretations of QM. Tell me how I can observe 100 pounds of gold into existence.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:59 pm

porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:And if mind depends on the body, then when the body ceases, so does mind dependent on it.


Well, that particular mind anyway.



Yes, that particular mind. When John is born, how do we know that it is rebirth of some previous person?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 3:01 pm

Alex123 wrote:Yes, that particular mind. When John is born, how do we know that it is rebirth of some previous person?


We can't prove that is, and we can't prove that it isn't. ;)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 3:05 pm

porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Yes, that particular mind. When John is born, how do we know that it is rebirth of some previous person?


We can't prove that is, and we can't prove that it isn't. ;)


We can't prove that this universe is not some illusion created by God, and that all so called "evidence" against God, Soul, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, Bible, is part of this illusion to test our faith in him. :tongue:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon May 13, 2013 3:08 pm

Alex123 wrote: Tell me how I can observe 100 pounds of gold into existence.


You would need the special powers of a Buddha to do that. :tongue:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby vagrancy » Mon May 13, 2013 3:16 pm

Alex123 wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Yes, that particular mind. When John is born, how do we know that it is rebirth of some previous person?


We can't prove that is, and we can't prove that it isn't. ;)


We can't prove that this universe is not some illusion created by God, and that all so called "evidence" against God, Soul, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, Bible, is part of this illusion to test our faith in him. :tongue:


As Bill Hicks says, what a prankster God that would be, walking around planting dinosaur skeletons in the earth, grinning and thinking "Ho-ho-ho, let's see who believes in me now! "
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon May 13, 2013 3:39 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
If you exist here in this state out of pure chance (why not be a mosquito etc.) and the only cause is the physical cause, just think about the implications of this.

This implies that YOU will 100% be reborn in another almost infinitly posibilites of existance. This is because the physical cause that bring you here will, with an 100% chance of success reborn you for an infinite number of times because that physical cause has an exact 100% chance of happening for an infinite amount of times over the course of infinite time. Like a monkey writing a shekspeare drama over the course of infinite typing at a computer that biological cause happening for infinity will eventually give rise to a complex sistem of electrons, fotons etc. that will give rise to a conciousness that will create you. The money typing at a computer is typing an infinite amount of words every second because there can exist an infinite number of universes just like ours. This idea also implies rebirth.


That's an interesting point you raise. It's true that in an infinite multiverse "you" would occur an infinite number of times. Also every conceivable variation of "you" will also re-occur. Every decision you make will be made again, and every decision you didn't make will be made somewhere. In fact, even as you write your post there is another dxm_dxm in another universe, typing exactly the words you are typing. There is also a dxp_dxp somewhere, typing words that are a little different, and a mxd_mxd somewhere who is not Buddhist but Hindu, and so on.

The problem, though, is that there's no karmic link and no continuity of consciousness among these different versions of "you". So although multiverse theory does imply a sort of rebirth, it's not the same as rebirth in Buddhism.

The only difference is that in this case, the rebirth is entirely random while in the context of karma it is not random but both lead to rebirth as the logical conclusion. Why this proces of rebirth is not random and is subject to the law of karma is another discussion as I said and it can not be solved using intelectual thiking, as least nobody managed to do that untill now. I am not a master in meditation to tell you that I found out for myself that law of karma is true/false or if meditation can provide us that answer, it is up to us to find out.


Since karmic continuity is integral to rebirth as understood in Buddhism, if you can't make a logical case for karma, then you aren't making a logical case for rebirth.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon May 13, 2013 5:03 pm

There is no such thing as a logical proof for rebirth or kamma.

Rebirth is logically possible but it isn't logically necessitated. So please, don't even attempt to use logic to prove rebirth, it just looks bad.

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"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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