the great rebirth debate

Includes our Terms Of Service (please read first)
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 3829
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:07 am

Blackbird wrote:Unfortunately I happen to feel that the Venerable Ajahn Sumedho is doing the Dhamma a disservice by misrepresenting the teachings.


Have you ever met him, or attended any of his talks, Blackbird ?

Fortunately your opinion is not the same as that of the monks and many lay practitioners like myself who had the good fortune to receive teachings and instruction at Amaravati monastery from such a wonderful teacher as Ajahn Sumedho before he retired to Thailand.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:12 am

Aloka wrote:
Blackbird wrote:Unfortunately I happen to feel that the Venerable Ajahn Sumedho is doing the Dhamma a disservice by misrepresenting the teachings.


Have you ever met him, or attended any of his talks, Blackbird ?

Fortunately your opinion is not the same as that of the monks and many lay practitioners like myself who had the good fortune to receive teachings and instruction at Amaravati monastery from such a wonderful teacher as Ajahn Sumedho before he retired to Thailand.



Sadhu!
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

chownah
Posts: 3019
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:29 am

BlackBird wrote:Well that's one way of looking at it Craig, unfortunately 'rebirth is something that is going on all the time' is not what the Buddha intended..

Does the Buddha whisper in your ear about how he intended his teachings or does he send you emails via the kammic Internet? I really hope so as there are a lot of things in the Suttas which are not specifically spelled out.....I mean LOTS of things and I would like him to clarify them not only for me but for you and everyone else too!
I hope my irreverent joking around does not disturb you but really it does seem that you think you can in some way determine the Buddha's intentions......can you?
chownah

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:39 am

I hope my irreverent joking around does not disturb you but really it does seem that you think you can in some way determine the Buddha's intentions......can you?
chownah


We can all become one with the Buddha, if we are truly awake to the present moment, how things are right now :)


"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Huang Po


"The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

Why not give it a try? Do you dare?"

Ajahn Chah



So the Buddha is here and now, and "his" teaching is to simply be in the present moment :sage:
:thumbsup:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20081
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:49 am

clw_uk wrote:
I hope my irreverent joking around does not disturb you but really it does seem that you think you can in some way determine the Buddha's intentions......can you?
chownah


We can all become one with the Buddha, if we are truly awake to the present moment, how things are right now
Become one with the Buddha? Seriously?


Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.
Then, Craig, why do you do all this battle against literal rebirth being taught in the Pali suttas?

Basically, it reads as if you are trying to use these teachings of Ajahn Chah, who did not deny literal rebirth, you quote as away of trying to shut up those with whom you disagree.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:52 am

chownah wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Well that's one way of looking at it Craig, unfortunately 'rebirth is something that is going on all the time' is not what the Buddha intended..

Does the Buddha whisper in your ear about how he intended his teachings or does he send you emails via the kammic Internet? I really hope so as there are a lot of things in the Suttas which are not specifically spelled out.....I mean LOTS of things and I would like him to clarify them not only for me but for you and everyone else too!
I hope my irreverent joking around does not disturb you but really it does seem that you think you can in some way determine the Buddha's intentions......can you?
chownah


Chownah, I've read most of 3 of the nikayas, and a good portion of the 4th. There are some things the Buddha is quite categorical about, it doesn't take a stream enterer to figure it out when the Buddha says "I say this because I have seen it with my own eyes"... Or in a more general sense when he speaks in ways that do not leave room for alternative interpretations.

Your sarcastic post is a bit hurtful. I know you don't like what I say, and I would warrant your issue with me probably extends beyond the words that I write... But perhaps you should address the things I say with logical counter points rather than saying nasty stuff. If not for the general vibe of this place, then for your own sake.
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:56 am

Become one with the Buddha? Seriously?


Yeah, I mean I define that in the way that Ajahn Sumedho taught it (intuitive awareness) and how its taught in the Thai Forest Tradition of the "one who knows" and "original mind" and how I read it in the teaching of Huang Po


If we become one with pure awareness (Buddha) then there is pure knowing, and so no ignorance



Then, Craig, why do you do all this battle against literal rebirth being taught in the Pali suttas?

Basically, it read as if you are trying to use these teachings of Ajahn Chah, who did not deny literal rebirth, you quote as away of trying to shut up those with whom you disagree.


I don't battle against it anymore :/ I just use it

Use it in terms of seeing D.O. in terms of the present moment, and use it in terms of if I like the doctrine or not and the various concepts and dukkha I create around the word "rebirth"

:)

And I didnt say Ajahn Chah denied rebirth, I never met him (for obvious reasons)

And I never said Ajahn Sumedho did , or Buddhadasa :)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:02 am

We can use the word Buddha to refer to Gotama, the founder of what is now known as Buddhism, the historical sage who attained Parinibbana in India 2,500 years ago, the teacher of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, teachings from which we still benefit today.


But when we take refuge in the Buddha, it doesn’t mean that we take refuge in some historical prophet, but in that which is wise in the universe, in our minds, that which is not separate from us but is more real than anything we can conceive with the mind or experience through the senses. Without any Buddha-wisdom in the universe, life for any length of time would be totally impossible; it is the Buddha-wisdom that protects. We call it Buddha-wisdom, other people can call it other things if they want, these are just words.

We happen to use the words of our tradition. We’re not going to argue about Pali words, Sanskrit words, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English or any other, we’re just using the term Buddha-wisdom as a conventional symbol to help remind us to be wise, to be alert, to be awake.

Many forest bhikkhus in the North-East of Thailand use the word ‘Buddho’ as their meditation object. They use it as a kind of koan. Firstly, they calm the mind by following the inhalations and exhalations using the syllables BUD-DHO, and then begin to contemplate, ‘What is Buddho, the ‘one who knows’?’ ‘What is the knowing?’



http://www.amaravati.org/documents/nowisknow/02bds.html


And as Huang Po said

"Sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very seeking they lose it"
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:07 am

At face value 'becoming one with the Buddha' - 'pure awareness' - 'The one who knows' - All quite clearly resembles eternalism. I have held numerous discussions with Dhamma friends both in real life and online and these discussions invariably always arrive at the fact that it appears that Ajahn Sumedho is advocating some kind of eternalism. I say 'appears' because having not had the chance for him to clarify some of these ideas, I can only take them at face value. But it screams of misidentification of jhana with nibbana to me, and I know I'm not the only one.

And I am sorry, but I once again completely disagree with your above quote Craig:

Taking refuge in the Buddha does for me, and many others involve some degree of taking refuge in the Buddha as a historical person. Your rejection of that, and apparently Ajahn Sumedho's too, is not the gospel truth in this matter.

Aloka: you are attempting to turn this into an ad hominem, when it's really just about the doctrine. I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Sumedho, I just don't agree with his flavour of Dhamma, I think it's eternalistic and at odds with the Suttas. That has nothing to do with whether I've met him or not or what he's like as a person. I know Ajahn Sumedho's done a lot for the Sangha, has been an outstanding monk all his life and has contributed so much to this world. So my disagreement is only with the doctrine he espouses, not with him as a person. Unfortunately the only reason I saw this post of yours was because somebody else quoted it - If you catch the drift of what I am saying. So if you wish to discuss this further, the only way to do so is via pm.\

metta to you both.
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20081
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
Become one with the Buddha? Seriously?


Yeah, I mean I define that in the way that Ajahn Sumedho taught it (intuitive awareness) and how its taught in the Thai Forest Tradition of the "one who knows" and "original mind" and how I read it in the teaching of Huang Po


If we become one with pure awareness (Buddha) then there is pure knowing, and so no ignorance
One with pure awareness? Are you serious?



Then, Craig, why do you do all this battle against literal rebirth being taught in the Pali suttas?

Basically, it read as if you are trying to use these teachings of Ajahn Chah, who did not deny literal rebirth, you quote as away of trying to shut up those with whom you disagree.


I don't battle against it anymore :/ I just use it
It certainly looks like you are still trying to battle against literal rebirth as taught in the suttas, but just using slightly different tactics.

Use it in terms of seeing D.O. in terms of the present moment, and use it in terms of if I like the doctrine or not and the various concepts and dukkha I create around the word "rebirth"
And here you make my point. This is nothing new in you above arguments over the years. The only thing different here is your trying shut up your opponent by quoting Ajahn Chah. The thing is with that is that in using Ajahn Chah's words that way you are, you are not taking them seriously. They are just a cudgel you use against your opponent, totally flying in the face of the spirit of Ven Chah's words.

And I didnt say Ajahn Chah denied rebirth, I never met him (for obvious reasons)

And I never said Ajahn Sumedho did , or Buddhadasa :)
I did not say that you did. It is simply a matter of how you are using Ajahn Chah's words in the offending msg.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:18 am

At face value 'becoming one with the Buddha' - 'pure awareness' - 'The one who knows' - All quite clearly resembles eternalism.


That would be your perception of it, no?

If there is pure awareness of the here and now, then one is aware of the arising and cessation of feeling, of grasping and so the sense of "I am" and how "I am" is a delusion and dukkha

All Dhammas are seen as anatta, how is that eternalism?

It seems, once again, you are greeted with a teaching you dont like and slander if with "wrong view"

Before it was anihilationism, now its eternalism :shrug:



I have held numerous discussions with Dhamma friends both in real life and online and these discussions invariably always arrive at the fact that it appears that Ajahn Sumedho is advocating some kind of eternalism.


How?

Also how does Ajahn Chah teach eternalism, as he teaches the same?

The Timeless Buddha

The original heart / mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and no self, beyond birth and death. To see a self to be reborn is the real trouble of the world. True purity is limitless, untouchable, beyond all opposites and all creation.

We take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. This is the heritage of every Buddha that appears in the world. What is this Buddha? When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.

So the Buddha was not enlightened in India. In fact he was never enlightened, was never born, and never died. This timeless Buddha is our true home, our abiding place. When we take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, all things in the world are free for us. They become our teacher, proclaiming the one true nature of life.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... t_Pool.htm




Taking refuge in the Buddha does for me, and many others involve some degree of taking refuge in the Buddha as a historical person. Your rejection of that, and apparently Ajahn Sumedho's too, is not the gospel truth in this matter.


So "Buddha" was the five khandas called Gotama?
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:19 am

As a side note, It used to really upset me when I saw people say stuff like you do Craig. To see them reject the idea that the Buddha was a historical 'Buddha' so to speak. To take up some kind of cosmic mystic view that the Buddha is in all of us, and taking refuge has nothing to do with believe in the Buddha as a person. The kind of view that sees contemporary teachers as just as if not more important that the Buddha himself - When in my eyes there's no proof or evidence that contemporary teachers are enlightened, and even if they are enlightened (which may or may not be the case) they could never be as wise as the Buddha based on the Buddha's own discourses on what comprises a Buddha and the differences between one and an arahant.

It used to upset me that in my mind, people figured their own ideas and preconceptions were more important than what I see as a historical person who has passed on his infinite wisdom through the suttas. But a week or two ago I realised that really, the only thing that mattered was my practice. My meditation, my own quest for gnosis. You can't convince everyone you meet. You can't even get along with everyone you meet. There are always going to be disagreements and people that don't like what you have to say, or even in some cases people that don't like you on the basis of what you've said (and I'm not talking about you now Craig because I realize for all our disagreement you don't feel anything negative towards me, and the feeling is likewise) but i digress. Now I just feel that it's important to present a counter argument if nobody else will, simply for the fact that those who might come along in future deserve to see both sides of the coin, they can make their own mind up. That's all I am doing here, or more aptly: All I am intending on doing here.

For every view that I think is at odds with what I have read in the suttas and commentaries and appears to be categorical, I will attempt to offer a view that is congruent with the suttas.

I look forward to topics where we might find some common ground (for example on the nature of suffering in the arahant, which we both agree is not present.)

and I do apologise if anyone has taken offence at what I have said. I always try to avoid making things ad hominem, so in my mind it is okay to contest and reject doctrines, as long as one confines that disagreement to what has been said and not to the person that said it.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:20 am

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings
Huang Po
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:24 am

clw_uk wrote:
All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings
Huang Po


Sounds more like Advaita Vedanta to me than Dhamma. Or at the very least Mahayana, but certainly not Theravada - It would seem to me the above quote is quite at odds with what the Buddha has taught in the suttas. That's just my take though.

Will endeavour to hunt out some quotes that directly contradict the notion expressed above.
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am

It used to upset me that in my mind, people figured their own ideas and preconceptions were more important than what I see as a historical person who has passed on his infinite wisdom through the suttas. But a week or two ago I realised that really, the only thing that mattered was my practice. My meditation, my own quest for gnosis. You can't convince everyone you meet. You can't even get along with everyone you meet. There are always going to be disagreements and people that don't like what you have to say, or even in some cases people that don't like you on the basis of what you've said


Sadhu!

(and I'm not talking about you now Craig because I realize for all our disagreement you don't feel anything negative towards me, and the feeling is likewise)


Of course not :) xxx


but i digress. Now I just feel that it's important to present a counter argument if nobody else will, simply for the fact that those who might come along in future deserve to see both sides of the coin, they can make their own mind up. That's all I am doing here, or more aptly: All I am intending on doing here.


Well thats whats a discussion forum is for :)

I look forward to topics where we might find some common ground (for example on the nature of suffering in the arahant, which we both agree is not present.)


Thats two topics we agree on

:toast: :console:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:26 am

BlackBird wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings
Huang Po


Sounds more like Advaita Vedanta to me than Dhamma. Or at the very least Mahayana, but certainly not Theravada. That's just my take though.


The point is that wanting to be Buddha will be the very thing that stops you being Buddha (or Arahant in Pali terms)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20081
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:28 am

clw_uk wrote:
All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings
Huang Po
That is nice. Actually, I'd like to see you actually unpack these two sentences, to actually draw out what is actually being said here, showing us what "One Mind" actually is and how "One Mind" and "there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings" does not contract the suttas.

Something Namdrol once said that is valid here:
    "In general, if a sutra is crucial to one's own schools exegesis, but is of questionable provenance, it cannot be used in a general discussion to bolster one's own school's position since the text upon which one is basing one's position is not accepted as a valid text by all parties. "
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:37 am

One Mind" and "there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings" and how this does not contract the suttas



One Mind

Anatta

Or from the Canon, which you probably expected

""Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



And

no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings



"Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing." Ajhan Chah

As in, dont want to be a Buddha, as thats just craving to be

And dont want to get rid of negative traits, as thats just craving not to be

Instead just be

"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Huang Po

"Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing." Ajahn Chah

So in other words do not want to be a "sentient being" and do no want to be "Buddha" as Nibbana is in the letting go, the complete awareness and acceptance of things as they are
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:39 am

To clarify

When "pleasure" arises, just be Buddha manifest and observe the dhamma arise and fall

When "pain rises, just be Buddha manifest and observe the dhamma rise and fall

Then there is no coming or going, no me or mine

There is just the way it is, no craving either way and so no dukkha :)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:47 am

Ajahn Chah would refer to that Awareness, that knowing nature of mind, as Buddha.

“This is the true Buddha,The
One Who Knows [Poo Roo in Thai].” The customary way of talking
about Awareness for both Ajahn Chah and other masters of the forest
tradition would be to use the term Buddha in this way—the aware,
awake quality of our own mind.This is the Buddha.He would say things
like,

“The Buddha who passed into Parinibbana 2,500 years ago is not
the Buddha who is a refuge.” (He also liked to shock people; they would
think they had a heretic in front of them.) “How can that Buddha be a
refuge? He is gone. Gone...really gone.That’s no refuge.A refuge is a safe
place. So how can this great being who lived 2,500 years ago provide
safety? When you think about him, it makes you feel good? But this
feeling on its own is not so secure....”



And as Ajahn Chah taught to use


The Timeless Buddha

The original heart / mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and no self, beyond birth and death. To see a self to be reborn is the real trouble of the world. True purity is limitless, untouchable, beyond all opposites and all creation.

We take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. This is the heritage of every Buddha that appears in the world. What is this Buddha? When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.

So the Buddha was not enlightened in India. In fact he was never enlightened, was never born, and never died. This timeless Buddha is our true home, our abiding place. When we take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, all things in the world are free for us. They become our teacher, proclaiming the one true nature of life.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... t_Pool.htm
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan


Return to “Announcements”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests