YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

the great rebirth debate - Page 199 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5517
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:07 am


User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:12 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:29 am


User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:39 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:49 am


User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:52 am

Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:56 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:02 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:07 am

At face value 'becoming one with the Buddha' - 'pure awareness' - 'The one who knows' - All quite clearly resembles eternalism. I have held numerous discussions with Dhamma friends both in real life and online and these discussions invariably always arrive at the fact that it appears that Ajahn Sumedho is advocating some kind of eternalism. I say 'appears' because having not had the chance for him to clarify some of these ideas, I can only take them at face value. But it screams of misidentification of jhana with nibbana to me, and I know I'm not the only one.

And I am sorry, but I once again completely disagree with your above quote Craig:

Taking refuge in the Buddha does for me, and many others involve some degree of taking refuge in the Buddha as a historical person. Your rejection of that, and apparently Ajahn Sumedho's too, is not the gospel truth in this matter.

Aloka: you are attempting to turn this into an ad hominem, when it's really just about the doctrine. I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Sumedho, I just don't agree with his flavour of Dhamma, I think it's eternalistic and at odds with the Suttas. That has nothing to do with whether I've met him or not or what he's like as a person. I know Ajahn Sumedho's done a lot for the Sangha, has been an outstanding monk all his life and has contributed so much to this world. So my disagreement is only with the doctrine he espouses, not with him as a person. Unfortunately the only reason I saw this post of yours was because somebody else quoted it - If you catch the drift of what I am saying. So if you wish to discuss this further, the only way to do so is via pm.\

metta to you both.
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:17 am


User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:18 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:19 am

As a side note, It used to really upset me when I saw people say stuff like you do Craig. To see them reject the idea that the Buddha was a historical 'Buddha' so to speak. To take up some kind of cosmic mystic view that the Buddha is in all of us, and taking refuge has nothing to do with believe in the Buddha as a person. The kind of view that sees contemporary teachers as just as if not more important that the Buddha himself - When in my eyes there's no proof or evidence that contemporary teachers are enlightened, and even if they are enlightened (which may or may not be the case) they could never be as wise as the Buddha based on the Buddha's own discourses on what comprises a Buddha and the differences between one and an arahant.

It used to upset me that in my mind, people figured their own ideas and preconceptions were more important than what I see as a historical person who has passed on his infinite wisdom through the suttas. But a week or two ago I realised that really, the only thing that mattered was my practice. My meditation, my own quest for gnosis. You can't convince everyone you meet. You can't even get along with everyone you meet. There are always going to be disagreements and people that don't like what you have to say, or even in some cases people that don't like you on the basis of what you've said (and I'm not talking about you now Craig because I realize for all our disagreement you don't feel anything negative towards me, and the feeling is likewise) but i digress. Now I just feel that it's important to present a counter argument if nobody else will, simply for the fact that those who might come along in future deserve to see both sides of the coin, they can make their own mind up. That's all I am doing here, or more aptly: All I am intending on doing here.

For every view that I think is at odds with what I have read in the suttas and commentaries and appears to be categorical, I will attempt to offer a view that is congruent with the suttas.

I look forward to topics where we might find some common ground (for example on the nature of suffering in the arahant, which we both agree is not present.)

and I do apologise if anyone has taken offence at what I have said. I always try to avoid making things ad hominem, so in my mind it is okay to contest and reject doctrines, as long as one confines that disagreement to what has been said and not to the person that said it.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:20 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:24 am

Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:26 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:28 am


User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:37 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:39 am

To clarify

When "pleasure" arises, just be Buddha manifest and observe the dhamma arise and fall

When "pain rises, just be Buddha manifest and observe the dhamma rise and fall

Then there is no coming or going, no me or mine

There is just the way it is, no craving either way and so no dukkha :)
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:47 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine