the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:52 am

clw_uk wrote:
One Mind" and "there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings" and how this does not contract the suttas



One Mind

Anatta

Or from the Canon, which you probably expected

""Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} . . .
This just sad. In other words, Craig, you are just guessing. You do not have a clue as to what Huang Po means by "One Mind." You need to seriously do your home work before you start trying to press poor Huang Po into your service here of trying to beat up the idea of literal rebirth. And doing your homework means more than reading an online article or two.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:53 am

I did not say that you did. It is simply a matter of how you are using Ajahn Chah's words in the offending msg.


And you are merely interpreting my posts based upon who "I" was three years ago (or less) ...
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:54 am

BlackBird wrote:Aloka: you are attempting to turn this into an ad hominem, when it's really just about the doctrine. I have a lot of respect for Ajahn Sumedho, I just don't agree with his flavour of Dhamma, I think it's eternalistic and at odds with the Suttas. That has nothing to do with whether I've met him or not or what he's like as a person. I know Ajahn Sumedho's done a lot for the Sangha, has been an outstanding monk all his life and has contributed so much to this world. So my disagreement is only with the doctrine he espouses, not with him as a person. Unfortunately the only reason I saw this post of yours was because somebody else quoted it - If you catch the drift of what I am saying. So if you wish to discuss this further, the only way to do so is via pm.\



There goes that "ad hominem" accusation from you again Jack!

You need to take care of how you speak about someone youve never met who is highly respected around the world,saying they're doing the Dhamma a disservice, especially as the late monk you follow yourself is not without controversy.

I'd also be grateful if you didn't send me any more pm's thanks, because I don't feel any need to discuss this further.

May you be happy and at ease ,

Aloka
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3604
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:55 am

    "In general, if a sutra[, or any text,] is crucial to one's own schools exegesis, but is of questionable provenance, it cannot be used in a general discussion to bolster one's own school's position since the text upon which one is basing one's position is not accepted as a valid text by all parties. " -- LN/MS
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:55 am

This just sad. In other words, Craig, you are just guessing. You do not have a clue as to what Huang Po means by "One Mind."


Do you know what he meant more than me? :shrug:

Maybe you do, however I just posted how I use them

At the end of the day we use the teachings to lead us to non grasping, not to grasp at ideas, do we not?

You need to seriously do your home work before you start trying to press poor Huang Po into your service here of trying to beat up the idea of literal rebirth. And doing your homework means more than reading an online article or two.


I'm not trying to "beat up anything" and I think a fair audience would agree with me

That seems to be your misapprehension, based on former experience
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:58 am

All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness :hello:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:00 am

clw_uk wrote:
This just sad. In other words, Craig, you are just guessing. You do not have a clue as to what Huang Po means by "One Mind."


Do you know what he meant more than me? :shrug:

Maybe you do, however I just posted how I use them
Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:02 am

Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.


Which I wasnt doing

:?

I did say that what I posted didnt detract from the Three lifetimes model

As I said you seem stuck in past perceptions :juggling:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:03 am

clw_uk wrote:All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness
There is not a thing wrong with awareness in the here and now, but how you used Huang Po and Ajahn Chah's words here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=3960#p255954 in the context of the ongoing debate, that is a problem.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:05 am

Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth :guns:, which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now :) which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine :) xxxx :anjali:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:06 am

clw_uk wrote:
Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.


Which I wasnt doing

:?

I did say that what I posted didnt detract from the Three lifetimes model

As I said you seem stuck in past perceptions
So, actually, you are saying that literal rebirth teachings are in fact found in the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness
There is not a thing wrong with awareness in the here and now, but how you used Huang Po and Ajahn Chah's words here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=3960#p255954 in the context of the ongoing debate, that is a problem.



I used it in the sense of being aware of how this debate causes dukkha via clinging to doctrines

And how letting "the one who knows" come to be in the here and now, all disputes can be put to use as a source of learning Dhamma ... and then put to side :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:08 am

clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:11 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness
There is not a thing wrong with awareness in the here and now, but how you used Huang Po and Ajahn Chah's words here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=3960#p255954 in the context of the ongoing debate, that is a problem.



I used it in the sense of being aware of how this debate causes dukkha via clinging to doctrines
Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?

And how letting "the one who knows" come to be in the here and now, all disputes can be put to use as a source of learning Dhamma ... and then put to side
And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.


Which I wasnt doing

:?

I did say that what I posted didnt detract from the Three lifetimes model

As I said you seem stuck in past perceptions :juggling:
So, actually, you are saying that literal rebirth teachings are in fact found in the suttas.



It doesnt matter to me because regardless of if there is rebirth or not, this life is anatta and so is the next

This moment is dukkha If there is ignorance, and so is the next moment, let alone the next life. Yet if "Buddho" is strong enough, then there is no birth into tomorrow let alone another 1000 years :)

So if there is rebirth then I would have to practice the same as if there is was no rebirth

I read it there, yet I dont

But yet it doest matter to me

Now we come to the most important matter. The Buddha said that, "I teach only one thing: dukkha
and the quenching of dukkha." That is what all the teachings are about, dukkha and the quenching of
dukkha. He didn't talk about other things. Whether or not there is rebirth is not the fundamental question,
because once one is born here and now, there is dukkha like this and it must be quenched like this. Even if
you are born again, dukkha is like this and must be quenched in the same way. Why bother talking about
birth or no birth? Talk only about how dukkha arises and how dukkha is quenched. Just this is already
enough. For this reason the Buddha taught anattā. Once anattā is fully realized, there is no dukkha. When
there is no attā, dukkha isn't born, anymore. Therefore, he taught the quenching of dukkha, that is, he
taught this matter of not-self. The teaching of anattā is essential for the ending of dukkha. Arguments and
discussions about whether there is rebirth or not area waste of time. Whether "it" will be born or not, there
is still this business of quenching dukkha like this. It's better to speak about this quenching of dukkha
instead. This quenching of dukkha is the fact that there is no attā, is understanding that everything is
anattā. (33)
We can conclude by saying that if you understand anattā correctly and truly, then you will discover
for yourself that there is no rebirth and no reincarnation. The matter is finished


http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:23 am

Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?


I'm talking about how we react to an idea, a thought, a feeling... and using that for wisdom


And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?


I have no disagreement with them, because all that matters is the here and now

As Ajahn Sumedho taught a Dhamma Friend of mine :)

The vision of rebirth should be let go of, just as the thought of "I dont like rebirth", as does the feeling of like of aversion to the idea of rebirth

Once again just be aware of concepts as they rise and fall, without grasping anything :)

No need to prove theories
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:24 am

"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:25 am

clw_uk wrote:

It doesnt matter to me because regardless of if there is rebirth or not, this life is anatta and so is the next
Methinks thou dost protest too much, as your very msg and quoting Ven Buddhadasa shows. You have simply tried a different tactic for to shut down the idea of literal rebirth being taught in the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:26 am

clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19383
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:27 am

And If I make speak bodly Tilt, It seems you need rebirth (as a hell being after death etc)

Instead of being at peace with or without it being real

For me it doesnt matter either way, my practice is the same
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests