the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:55 am

clw_uk wrote:
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?


How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Cute, but no cigar.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:55 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.


Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.

It would be an appeal if it was put forward as an objective argument in debate, but it's not.

Craig just seems to be saying that it's not relevant to his practice - a position that he has substantiated on several occasions.

It seems there's a disconnect here between discussion of subjective experience, and arguing of objective fact.... causing this topic to go around in circles (as it does).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:56 am

And if someone proves categorically that Buddha didnt teach rebirth

And that death is oblivion

I would still practice


:thumbsup:


The point is how we react to these things, and to let Buddha arise in there here and now

In this moment, as it is
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?


How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Cute, but no cigar.



Don't dodge tilt

You cant say I don't understand a persons teaching without understanding it youself

So

How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:03 am

That's nice, but it still does not change the fact that literal rebirth, as a teaching of the Buddha, is found in the suttas.


Fine :thumbsup:

But dont we end up practising the same?

I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.


You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"

So, you are suffering?


Usually I would suffer with these discussions, wanting rebirth to be true but arguing that it isnt and being caught up in views and opinions

Now I just notice the feeling :)

I am not. I am rather enjoying this.


As long as its minful contact friend :)

:twothumbsup:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:07 am

clw_uk wrote:
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.


You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"
Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:07 am

clw_uk wrote:
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.


Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0
I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

Nothing more needs to be said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.


You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"
Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.



Tilt It takes two to tango

So If my response means I am clinging to a view, then so are you for responding

Unless we both are not clinging and are merely discussing :)

BTW What is Huang Po's view?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.


Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0
I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

Nothing more needs to be said.




Ok :?

So we need to be aware of the here and now to stop rebirth in mind moments, and possible future lives

No different from my argument, so I dont get you'r gloating :? :popcorn:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:13 am

and please dont ignore

How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?




:thinking:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:19 am

clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore

How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Ignored.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore

How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Ignored.



How can you argue that I dont understand Huang Po's argument (and so I should not use it, which was you argument not mine) and yet not understand it yourself?

Your cant disagree with my understanding/use if you dont understand it or use it yourself ... How can you disagree with something you don't understand yourself...

So please tell us how you understand Huang Po

Otherwise your post means nothing :juggling:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:24 am

clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
That does not matter to me.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:24 am

No gloating. The point is made, and it is the only one in this stupid thread that I care about. So, there it is.


So you had a vested interest in "proving" rebirth to be true :/

And please answer my Huang Po question, which you fail to answer
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
That does not matter to me.



So in other words you dont know :broke:

Dodge :alien:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:28 am

clw_uk wrote:
No gloating. The point is made, and it is the only one in this stupid thread that I care about. So, there it is.


So you had a vested interest in "proving" rebirth to be true
As I have repeatedly said throughout this thread, I am not arguing that rebirth is true. I am simply pointing out that, as you said:
    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas


And please answer my Huang Po question, which you fail to answer
No.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:29 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
That does not matter to me.



So in other words you dont know

Dodge
Believe what you will. I do not care.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:34 am

So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best :)

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



:shrug:

The practice is the same, as Huang Po, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Chah, Ajhan Sumedho and Ajahn Amarao all point to ... as well as many others :group:

The here and now

The Buddha in the here and now, the point where none of this matters :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:38 am

clw_uk wrote:So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best
Your opinion on this matter matters not to me. This, however, is a good thing:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:39 am

"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po



:anjali:


Ajahn Chah

The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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