the great rebirth debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.


I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"
Okay, so what you are giving us is an idiosyncratic "Buddha-nature." I'll take, and if I am going to use buddha-nature, I'll stick to the Madhyamaka version of it.



Okey Doke :smile:

The words dont matter, as long as we dont cling to them :)
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:30 am

[quote

I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge[/quote]
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:30 am


I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge


I would most certainly expect any Ajahn that "sees everything', to have a firm belief in literal rebirth, as it would be quite clear and self evident to him.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

Buddha isn't found in books :)
The suttas are not just "books."



Reading the words wont give you meaning

You can read about the pleasure of cocaine without experiencing it

The words of the Canon point to being aware, to experience their meaning

You can read about dukkha, cessation, birth and kamma all you want but without experiencing them, you dont understand them

Just like you can read about refuge in Buddha all you want, but until you know Buddha-Nature, you dont know true refuge
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:38 am

Having done cocaine once many years ago, in my present state for me to do it again I could only think of horrible and unpleasant suffering. Suffering is only pleasant when you're completely imprisoned in Samsara.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:43 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

Buddha isn't found in books :)
The suttas are not just "books."



Reading the words wont give you meaning . . .
Which is why the suttas are more than just "books." I should not think that that would need to be spelled out.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:55 am

clw_uk wrote:The words dont matter, as long as we dont cling to them
Is this belief something you hold near and dear?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The words dont matter, as long as we dont cling to them
Is this belief something you hold near and dear?



Not really

Is your belief in rebirth?
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:05 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The words dont matter, as long as we dont cling to them
Is this belief something you hold near and dear?



Not really
So, you can take it or leave it.

Is your belief in rebirth?
I have not said that I believe in rebirth. My point here in this thread has been what you see eloquently stated:









































    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:09 am

Really :/ we get it tilt lol

I was even the one who said it, you don't need to keep posting it


We aren't even discussing that anymore really

But if you must ... :jedi:
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:13 am

clw_uk wrote:Really :/ we get it tilt lol

I was even the one who said it, you don't need to keep posting it


We aren't even discussing that anymore really

But if you must ...
I just answered your points.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:14 am

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
[/quote]



I'm not preaching to anyone, so yeah they can take it or leave it :)


I will say though you do seem to relish in what I posted earlier

"rebirth is in the suttas"

Kinda worrying how often you keep posting it


On a side note it's not really anything new, I said the same thing before


Can I ask why you keep re-posting it? It does come across as if your relish in it :/
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:20 am

Which is why the suttas are more than just "books." I should not think that that would need to be spelled out.



I didn't say "just"

That's your notions being layered on my post
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:21 am

clw_uk wrote:
    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas


I will say though you do seem to relish in what I posted earlier

"rebirth is in the suttas"
It is a good thing to see you clearly, without equivocation stating what is obvious about the suttas, especially after the protracted denials of earlier debates from you in this thread. It is a good thing.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Really :/ we get it tilt lol

I was even the one who said it, you don't need to keep posting it


We aren't even discussing that anymore really

But if you must ...
I just answered your points.




No you keep posting the same quote of mine, over and over, in bold red letters as if it's suppose to signify something (otherwise why post it again and again?)

I was the one who said it, it's something I have said before and, furthermore, it's no longer relevant to the topic at hand :smile:
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas


I will say though you do seem to relish in what I posted earlier

"rebirth is in the suttas"
It is a good thing to see you clearly, without equivocation stating what is obvious about the suttas, especially after the protracted denials of earlier debates from you in this thread. It is a good thing.



The you never really understood my point
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:34 am

clw_uk wrote:

The you never really understood my point
You can tell yourself that, if you wish. But it is interesting to see this coming someone who keeps talking about my "belief in rebirth" when I never claimed such. Now, I have not read everything you have written, but I did read carefully what you wrote when we debated in this thread sometime ago. At that time you would not have admitted, so it seemed, that the suttas taught a literal rebirth. But whether I understood you or not:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

this is the only point I wanted stated clearly, without equivocation. And there we have it.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

The you never really understood my point
You can tell yourself that, if you wish. But it is interesting to see this coming someone who keeps talking about my "belief in rebirth" when I never claimed such. Now, I have not read everything you have written, but I did read carefully what you wrote when we debated in this thread sometime ago. At that time you would not have admitted, so it seemed, that the suttas taught a literal rebirth. But whether I understood you or not:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

this is the only point I wanted stated clearly, without equivocation. And there we have it.



I hardly "kept mentioning it", what was it ... Twice?

Anyways this debate is getting more and more pointless so im willing to leave it at that :) xx
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:47 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

The you never really understood my point
You can tell yourself that, if you wish. But it is interesting to see this coming someone who keeps talking about my "belief in rebirth" when I never claimed such. Now, I have not read everything you have written, but I did read carefully what you wrote when we debated in this thread sometime ago. At that time you would not have admitted, so it seemed, that the suttas taught a literal rebirth. But whether I understood you or not:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

this is the only point I wanted stated clearly, without equivocation. And there we have it.



I hardly "kept mentioning it", what was it ... Twice?
Since I never claimed to believe in rebirth, why would you bring up my "belief in rebirth' at all?

Anyways this debate is getting more and more pointless so im willing to leave it at that
As I said, in this exchanges, pages of it now, the only point I wanted made was neatly made by you. Thanks.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:01 am

Since I never claimed to believe in rebirth, why would you bring up my "belief in rebirth' at all?


I think we have a perception of each other, but at opposite ends

I never claimed to disbelieve rebirth, but you seem to think I do

And you never claimed to believe it, but you seem to

I suspect we are probably in more agreement than it seems


As I said, in this exchanges, pages of it now, the only point I wanted made was neatly made by you. Thanks.


No problem :) x
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus


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