the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:19 pm

The Buddha never denied the existence of a person that is born and dies.


On a conventional level we can say person, as a way of reference

However in reality there is no "person" or "me" or "you"

It's an illusion created by clinging

Sure a personality can remain, if by that we mean habits and thought patterns, but they are not-self either


So if we do not cling to "personality" or the body etc, there is emptiness and non-death

There is no more "I am this" that dies, there is just the way things are in the moment

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”

When there is pure awareness then there are no "beings"

However when there is ignorance, then beings are born who endeavour/intend

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"there is no you in connection with that"

So when we are fully aware of the present moment then we are no longer deluded by feelings, we dont chase after pleasant feelings or avert from painful feelings. We then do not cling to that which dies and do not give rise (or birth) to "I am", which is associated with that which dies.

So we are not connected with that which dies. If there is no connection with death, there is non-death, deathlessness or non-experience of death

There is also no ageing, sickness or dukkha in general


However if we are connected to that which dies, through clinging, then there is ageing, sickness, death and dukkha in general

"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging, are dukkha."

Or to put it another way

In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging, are dukkha. This leads to Birth which is dukkha, aging which is dukkha, death which is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair which are dukkha; association with the unbeloved which is dukkha; separation from the loved which is dukkha; not getting what is wanted, is dukkha.





Instead we just experience things as they are, without reference to "me"

"When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.

That Is there is no "I am this body that dies", there is no self and so no death or dukkha. There is no self anywhere that can die.


This, just this, is the end of stress.

So when we are truly mindful, there is no dukkha any more and so no death
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:32 pm

This Sutta teaches the same thing

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


There is no "Him" to describe as dying or reappearing anywhere, in this life or any possible future ones


Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:34 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
You are conditional, in that you only see the danger if there is a future life


Alex123 - Some evil people can skillfully rip off other people and live a successful life... The danger is in being a door mat, obeying all the rules and having everyone walk all over you.


So you agree that your a conditional Buddhist?


For me, Buddhism without rebirth is for the most part a good cognitive psychotherapy to somehow deal with some of this life problems due to craving.



And thats a bad thing? Call it what you want, as long as it helps to abandon dukkha and craving then its Dhamma :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:48 pm

I'm going to throw all my responses into one post to make it easier

Maybe disliking current state of affairs is a motive to seek something better?


But its never satisfactory is it, because it changes

clw_uk wrote:
How trying to change the world to suit our needs leads to dukkha


Alex - So are you saying that one will have less dukkha if one doesn't change the world to suit our needs? So should we abandon all technological advancements, be totally natural, and run around naked? Especially in cold northern climates?


If someone understands Dukkha it doesnt matter if they are cold and naked or not, just like if someone takes a saw to you ... Simile of the Saw http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

However most people cannot understand Dhamma, so reducing dukkha as much as possible is admirable, via science. However it will never lead to complete freedom from dukkha


Having liking/disliking can lead one to become a successful businessman who lives in pleasure and luxury.


But is that dukkha free?

Don't mix the origination and cessation of thoughts ("I, me, mine") with birth and death of the body (cradle to grave).


So how does "I and mine" arise? Its born through clinging

If I dont cling to a rock then I dont think "my rock", but if I cling to it then "I and mine" has been born. Hence clinging gives birth to "I" in various mental states

"'It's with possessiveness, friend Ananda, that there is "I am," not without possessiveness. And through possessiveness of what is there "I am," not without possessiveness? Through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessiveness.


How do we become possessive? We crave and cling

now craving and clinging leads to birth of a being

"I am" is a being

Clinging gives birth to "I am"
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:13 pm

What Method Do We Use to End Suffering?

As the ordinary principles always advocate, it is right cultivation, the proper way of living or right living. Proper way of living is using wisdom to defeat ignorance, using knowledge to stop foolish living, or maintaining mindfulness, especially with external contacts. Right living is having perfect Right Mindfulness in life. Thus, there is Wisdom or Right View not foolishness and ignorance in one’s life. Right living is a life without suffering.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhikk ... uppada.htm

Buddhadasa :anjali:


When we get to cessation of ignorance then at that moment all the rest of the sequence ceases. It is not like one ceases then another ceases. When there is vijja then the suffering ceases. In any moment when there is true mindfulness and wisdom there is no suffering. The suffering has ceased. Now when you contemplate the cessation of desire, cessation of grasping (upadana), there is the cessation of becoming, cessation of rebirth and suffering. When things cease, when everything ceases then there's peace isn't there? There is knowing, serenity, emptiness, not-self. These are the words, the concepts describing cessation.


http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_ ... 20moa.html

Ajahn Sumedho :anjali:


The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... erstanding the Buddhas Teachings

Ajahn Chah :anjali:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:19 pm

clw_uk wrote:What I have said is that if there is clinging, there will be dukkha. That is basic Dhamma



The basic Dhamma is that clinging leads to rebirth, and rebirth can be a huge dukkha if it is into Hell realms or bad human circumstances (such as into poor Africa where one starves as a child and has no possibility of hearing Dhamma, much less to practice it).



Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:31 pm

The basic Dhamma is that clinging leads to rebirth


Not-clinging to anything is basic Dhamma

Actually its not basic, it is the Dhamma

, and rebirth can be a huge dukkha if it is into Hell realms or bad human circumstances ([i]such as into poor Africa where one starves as a child and has no possibility of hearing Dhamma, much less to practice it


If "hell" exists then I agree, however as I said it doesnt matter if hell exists or not because the practice would be the same regardless of it there was a physical hell or not


Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.


Because there will be an "I"
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:38 pm

Alex123 wrote:

Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.



"The mind which goes out to satisfy its moods is the cause of dukkha"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q19aElmcY64


:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:43 pm

Aloka wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.



"The mind which goes out to satisfy its moods is the cause of dukkha"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q19aElmcY64


:anjali:



Sadhu :anjali:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:45 pm

Aloka wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.


"The mind which goes out to satisfy its moods is the cause of dukkha"


How? A person wants something, goes out and gets it and experience satisfaction and pleasure.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:50 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.


"The mind which goes out to satisfy its moods is the cause of dukkha"


How? A person wants something, goes out and gets it and experience satisfaction and pleasure.



You need to listen to the talk to find out more, Alex !

:tongue:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:50 pm

clw_uk wrote:If "hell" exists then I agree, however as I said it doesnt matter if hell exists or not because the practice would be the same regardless of it there was a physical hell or not


Physical hell could motivate one to practice harder because it will be worthwhile to suffer a lot in this life to eliminate much greater suffering.

The problem is that the ideal practice is too hard: Being a bhikkhu who undertakes dhutanga practices, lives in poverty, austerity, etc, etc. It is worthwhile in the context of many lives. Otherwise, why not be a successful businessman/woman live in luxury, and practice Dhamma a bit?


clw_uk wrote:
Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.

Because there will be an "I"


I could experience pleasure...
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.


"The mind which goes out to satisfy its moods is the cause of dukkha"


How? A person wants something, goes out and gets it and experience satisfaction and pleasure.


And creates Dukkha
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Aloka wrote:You need to listen to the talk to find out more, Alex !


Can you, please, sum up the main points?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:53 pm

clw_uk wrote:Which is dukkha


But a pleasant one...
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:56 pm

Physical hell could motivate one to practice harder because it will be worthwhile to suffer a lot in this life to eliminate much greater suffering.


I agree, but its not central

The problem is that the ideal practice is too hard: Being a bhikkhu who undertakes dhutanga practices, lives in poverty, austerity, etc, etc. It is worthwhile in the context of many lives. Otherwise, why not be a successful businessman/woman live in luxury, and practice Dhamma a bit?


Its worthwhile in any life, since it greatly reduces dukkha and can even lead to a life of no-dukkha in the here and now

Living in luxury fosters "I am" and so it is full of more dukkha than a monks life


Alex - Prove the clinging always leads to suffering in this life.

clw_uk wrote: Because there will be an "I"

Alex - I could experience pleasure...


and death
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:58 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Which is dukkha


But a pleasant one...



but isnt satisfactory, leads to grasping at that which dies and leads to death, sorrow, lamentation

Inflating the ego

Grasping at more and more things

not getting what one wants, wanting things we cant have

Or we could follow Buddha and be free from all that
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:59 pm

It seems Alex that you have failed to see the danger in sensual pleasure, and in grasping in general
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:11 pm

"Both now & before is it painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, master Gotama. It's just that when the man was a leper covered with sores and infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, his faculties were impaired, which was why, even though the fire was actually painful to the touch, he had the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'"

"In the same way, Magandiya, sensual pleasures in the past were painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures in the future will be painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures at present are painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; but when beings are not free from passion for sensual pleasures — devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever — their faculties are impaired, which is why, even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to the touch, they have the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:It seems Alex that you have failed to see the danger in sensual pleasure, and in grasping in general

What's your point in this debate ? You are saying that karma and rebirth aren't part of the Buddha teachings according to the sutras ?
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