the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:52 am

It was taken from "the great forty"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:54 am

It is straightforward enough.


My point is that it shows freedom from that which dies in the here and now, let a lone stopping any future death
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:58 am

Greetings,

Here's an entertaining tale of post-mortem rebirth from the suttas...

MN 130: Devaduta Sutta
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/ati ... an.ati.htm

:twisted:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:07 am

clw_uk wrote:
It is straightforward enough.


My point is that it shows freedom from that which dies in the here and now, let a lone stopping any future death
Since the Buddha was already born, and if there were only one life, there would be no "being subject myself to birth." But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death. And there's no reason to not take the text exactly as it is written.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:11 am

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
-- MN 117
Interestingly, the texts I have referenced show that the Buddha-to-be was functioning from the basis of the first paragraph. Don't forget that a bodhisatta is not ariya. The second paragraph describes an ariya.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:11 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death.

Such a view is far from universal....

Bhante Kovida wrote:The Buddha spoke of rebirth but I feel that most people, including scholar monks, have
misunderstood and misinterpreted what the Buddha meant by rebirth. They speak of
rebirth the way others speak of reincarnation but they say that instead of a self or an egopersonality
going into a new body after death, it is the khammic energy of the individual
that continues [i.e. one's consciousness along with the after-effects of one's actions].
Again, this is speculation and wishful thinking. They use this idea of rebirth to explain
child prodigies and children who can recall past lives. I could be wrong, of course, but I
feel the Buddha meant something quite different.

It is said that the Buddha upon his enlightenment was able to recall numerous past lives.
Apparently he uttered: "Through many a birth I wandered, seeking but not finding the
builder of this house. Sorrowful indeed is birth again and again. O House Builder, you
have been seen; you shall not build the house again. Your rafters have been broken up;
your ridgepole is demolished too. My mind has now attained the unformed Nibbana and
reached the end of every sort of craving." In the Dhammacakka Sutta, his very first
discourse, the Buddha, commenting on the Second Noble Truth, states: "This very
craving is that which leads to rebirth. This is my last birth. Now there is no more rebirth
for me!"

From my own experience, insight and understanding, I feel that when the Buddha spoke
of rebirth he was actually referring to a psychological phenomenon as opposed to a
physical one, viz. mental rebirth--i.e., the repeated arising of the self/ego-center out of
ignorance and delusion, craving and clinging, hatred and ill-will. So, when the Buddha
spoke of recalling numerous past lives, he was simply referring to the many times in
which the self or ego manifested out of ignorance and delusion, etc., prior to his Supreme
Enlightenment. If you reflect, you can see that just in one day alone, the self can arise
many times out of ignorance and delusion, out of self-centered habits, impulses and
interests, right? When he was finally able to see through the illusion of a permanent and
fixed self ["The House Builder"], he was free from craving and clinging, mental suffering
and dis-ease. His mind was calm, spacious and serene, beyond self-centered thoughts and
feelings. And so when he said, "This is my last birth, now there is no more rebirth for
me", he was not speaking about not returning again in physical form but rather, that he
was now free of self-centered craving as his mind was purified of the three defilements

Source: http://www.bhantekovida.com/inquiring/b ... ly2003.pdf

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:13 am

Since the Buddha was already born, and if there were only one life, there would be no "being subject myself to birth." But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death. And there's no reason to not take the text exactly as it is written.


"being subject to birth" doesn't have to mean future birth, just the hardships that come from being born.

However if " I am" occurs after death, which the Buddha does say in the suttas, It would still mean the hardships from that birth.

That is to say, one birth or a million there is hardship.


So rebirth or no rebirth, Dhamma is the same.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death.

Such a view is far from universal....

Bhante Kovida wrote: . . .

Metta,
Retro. :)
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:17 am

From my own experience, insight and understanding, I feel that when the Buddha spoke
of rebirth he was actually referring to a psychological phenomenon as opposed to a
physical one, viz. mental rebirth--i.e., the repeated arising of the self/ego-center out of
ignorance and delusion, craving and clinging, hatred and ill-will. So, when the Buddha
spoke of recalling numerous past lives, he was simply referring to the many times in
which the self or ego manifested out of ignorance and delusion, etc., prior to his Supreme
Enlightenment. If you reflect, you can see that just in one day alone, the self can arise
many times out of ignorance and delusion, out of self-centered habits, impulses and
interests, right? When he was finally able to see through the illusion of a permanent and
fixed self ["The House Builder"], he was free from craving and clinging, mental suffering
and dis-ease. His mind was calm, spacious and serene, beyond self-centered thoughts and
feelings. And so when he said, "This is my last birth, now there is no more rebirth for
me", he was not speaking about not returning again in physical form but rather, that he
was now free of self-centered craving as his mind was purified of the three defilements



:anjali:

How many times have we been born today? :juggling:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:19 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.

You may of course view the matter as you like ~ as may others...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 am

clw_uk wrote:
Since the Buddha was already born, and if there were only one life, there would be no "being subject myself to birth." But the Buddha-to-be shows serious concern about being subject to birth, something that could only happen after death. And there's no reason to not take the text exactly as it is written.


"being subject to birth" doesn't have to mean future birth, just the hardships that come from being born.
Maybe it does not have to, but that would the straightforward and logical reading of the text.

So rebirth or no rebirth, Dhamma is the same.
Actually not, if there is only one life.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 am

I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.



Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.

You may of course view the matter as you like ~ as may others...
Well, thank you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:21 am

Actually not, if there is only one life.


Would you not practice Dhamma if there was one life?

I would personally
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:24 am

clw_uk wrote:
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.



Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
And who determines the "deeper meaning' and upon what basis? I think the Buddha was a better teacher than what some of the "deeper meaning" advocates advocate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:25 am

clw_uk wrote:
Actually not, if there is only one life.


Would you not practice Dhamma if there was one life?

I would personally
That would be like the "mindfulness therapy" business stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.



Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
And who determines the "deeper meaning' and upon what basis? I think the Buddha was a better teacher than what some of the "deeper meaning" advocates advocate.


Experience, reflection and wisdom?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Actually not, if there is only one life.


Would you not practice Dhamma if there was one life?

I would personally
That would be like the "mindfulness therapy" business stuff.



You didn't answer the question

To me, I would practice Dhamma even if there was one life. Why experience ageing and death when you can be free from it? :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:39 am

clw_uk wrote:You didn't answer the question

To me, I would practice Dhamma even if there was one life. Why experience ageing and death when you can be free from it? :)
I did answer the question. And you cannot be free of sickness, aging, and death unless you are dead, if there is only one life.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:44 am

clw_uk wrote:
Experience, reflection and wisdom?
And that is an objective standard. 2500 years after the Buddha's death we now have folks telling us what the Buddha truly taught, and never mind what those poor benighted folks that went before might have said, because they did not have the truly true "experience, reflection, and wisdom."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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