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the great rebirth debate - Page 238 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:24 pm


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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:30 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:59 am


chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:33 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:39 am


chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:57 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:56 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:37 am

Last edited by nowheat on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:49 am


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cooran
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby cooran » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:54 am

Hello nowheat,

Maybe the Sutta you mention is the Ayacana Sutta - The Request
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:32 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:37 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:56 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:27 am

As far as I can tell, tilt, despite your protests, you're not understanding a word I'm saying, and I find these sorts of endless loops really, really tedious, so I'll talk to any folks who are generous enough to share their understanding, because that is a big part of what I'm here for -- to understand why my understanding would be seen as incorrect by others. For whatever reason, you're not able to share that, so I'm just going to let you drift into my peripheral vision and do what I do.

:namaste:

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:55 am


chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:20 am


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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:43 am

Last edited by Aloka on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:50 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:41 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:09 pm

In the suttas I have seen how sometimes a simile is useful in conveying information. Here's my attempt at using that method to make clear what I see happening here.

Scientist: There are other planets in solar systems other than our own. I have seen them.
Skeptic: If you have seen them, take me to them and show me.
Scientist: I didn't see them by going to them. I saw them indirectly by drawing conclusions from observations, and from the way math works, from physics.
Skeptic: But you have stated that you have seen them. I will believe you when you support what you have said by showing them to me. So take me to one.
Scientist: You aren't understanding the way I use words, nor are you understanding the way I have come to the conclusions I have. When I said "I have seen them" you took it literally. I was meaning something different. I meant I had good evidence of their existence through other methods rather than by having visited one. Let me try showing you one method. Let's talk about gravity. Gravity is important evidence for what I am saying. Let's start with something you can see for yourself -- or rather feel. Have you experienced gravity?
Skeptic: I see no reason to talk to you about gravity when you are completely unable to support your first statement that you have seen other planets. Until you can support that statement by bringing me to an extra-solar planet so that I, too, can see it with my eyes, I will not confirm or deny anything about gravity.
Scientist: You are not understanding the language I was using.
Skeptic: I understand the language you were using perfectly. I have not asked for anything unreasonable. You said you have seen other planets. I will believe that when you take me to one so that I, too, can see other planets.
Scientist: I never said I had been to another planet. I never said I could take you to one. I have explained what I meant, and set out on an attempt to demonstrate to you some of the methods I do use. You have misunderstood what I am saying, and you refuse to engage in a demonstration of the methods I do use. I am wanting to show you one component -- and if you find that component to fail in some way, you can show me your proofs and I can learn something new, maybe I'll find out there aren't extrasolar planets after all as a result -- but you refuse.
Skeptic: Given what you said -- and it was perfectly clear; just look at the words you used! see here how you stated "I have seen them"? -- asking for you to bring me to a planet where I can see one too is not out of line. These dodges of yours are just you being defensive because you can't back up what you said.
Scientist: You say you understand the way I speak, but it's clear that you don't. I have tried to explain this to you, and while you say you understand, I don't see that you do. I don't think I can get through to you because there's some interference between us hindering understanding.
Skeptic: Good, you admit that you are bad at communicating.
Scientist: Can we talk about gravity?
Skeptic: Not until you can prove to me you saw a planet by taking me there.
Scientist: I give up.
Skeptic: More proof that you're incompetent. When the pressure is on, you dodge responsibility...
Scientist: Whatever.


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