the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:03 am

AJungianIdeal wrote:If not, what gets "transferred" as it was?


Hence the "greatness" of the debate.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:18 pm

AJungianIdeal wrote:I'm trying real hard to try and make rebirth mesh with neuroscience. Does rebirth depend on a dualistic conception of the mind? If not, what gets "transferred" as it was?

DNA?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:40 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
This and many things more makes us naturally realize , that nothing happens owing to chance . Even the quiver of a leaf has a cause........


Hi, Sanjay. I think that you will find with very little effort that Buddha taught that some kamma vipakha was as a result of natural phenomena, such as storms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, strikes of The Earth by astral bodies (comets and meteors), and etc. Also many are killed in wars and through acts of violence, which had nothing to do with their intentional actions (kamma).

Sanjay PS wrote:If some one does get to see the many countless births that one has lived doing skillful and unskillful actions , resulting in the growth of the seeds and its fruits , still the actual transformation of abandoning all unskillful actions will come only when one is saturated for sufficient time in the feeling of deep wisdom or bhavana. The seeing of births earlier can serve to the extent of being an inspiration. It is the feeling that is all important , and gets about the gradual change in all of us. Thereby helping us help ourselves in taking care of the many unfortunate .


Yes. Awareness of those experiences would be very beneficial, especially in the avoidance of mistakes, which lead to further rebirths.
It is a time tested trite truism that "Failure to learn the lessons of the past doom us to repeat them in the future."

Great post! Thanks :twothumbsup:


Hi Ron ,

As you have rightly quoted , cause and effect is not just limited to kamma , but also to all activities that happen day to day , hence , the quiver of the leaf , has the cause of the breeze blowing through, which also has many causes to it , and it goes on....... . Even the sensations , reactions, resulting consciousness that we feel from moment to moment , are not just limited to kamma , but also , to the environment , the food taken , posture and other causes . What is important is to develop wisdom that the pleasant sooner or later turns to unpleasant and that the unpleasant also invariably turns to the pleasant . All in a state of flux , all in a state of change , carrying with it the inherent seed of decay . Thus do the Buddhas say , that sensations can be the point on which our liberation can strongly depend on, only and only if , should we understand its characteristics with wisdom .

Its so nice have the inspiration of the sangha , thank you .

sanjay
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:04 am

I've seen Bhikkhu Pesala on this forum has given multiple examples from Tipitaka about people being born with difficulties because of past kamma. I'm on my mobile now so even if I could find those posts, I couldn't copy them here. Maybe someone else, maybe bhikkhu himself, would be kind to do so.



The nikaya's also say that all actors go to hell ... :?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:06 am

chownah wrote:
AJungianIdeal wrote:I'm trying real hard to try and make rebirth mesh with neuroscience. Does rebirth depend on a dualistic conception of the mind? If not, what gets "transferred" as it was?

DNA?
chownah



Even if it did happen, and you knew how it happened, would that liberate your mind from dukkha?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:12 am

Come on dhamma wheelers! 10 more pages and this topic gets to 5 000 posts! :tongue: :twisted: :rolleye: :buddha2:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:17 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Come on dhamma wheelers! 10 more pages and this topic gets to 5 000 posts! :tongue: :twisted: :rolleye: :buddha2:



:toast:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:47 am

Dear friends,

Confidence/faith/belief (<---synonyms on a psychological level) in the Buddha's enlightenment necessarily entails belief in kamma and rebirth which are cornerstones of the his teaching (the Dhamma).

If you don't have faith that the Buddha was fully enlightened, then all of his teachings come under your skeptical doubt and you can pick and choose what you want like someone who only eats the frosting off a cake.

If one believes there is no rebirth and no consequences of actions performed in this life that manifest later, then one inclines to nihilism.

"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
-DN 22

'I have said: "Becoming conditions birth."'
-DN 15

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
-DN 22


Craving leads to becoming which leads to birth.

:anjali:
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James
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:28 am

If you don't have faith that the Buddha was fully enlightened, then all of his teachings come under your skeptical doubt and you can pick and choose what you want like someone who only eats the frosting off a cake.


Not believing in rebirth doesn't equal non belief in the Buddha being fully awake.

If one believes there is no rebirth and no consequences of actions performed in this life that manifest later, then one inclines to nihilism.


Straw man! Non adherence to metaphysics doesn't always entail nihilism


Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others).


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


The Dhamma is more to do with what is pragmatic (I.e. Useful) than what is ontological.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:30 am

Craving leads to becoming which leads to birth.


Birth of identification ;) if I identity with my decaying body, then I become that which dies
Through anatta, how can "I" be identified with anything that decays? Therefor there is the deathless, in this moment, to be experienced by the wise
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:27 am

Dear clw_uk

clw_uk wrote:
If you don't have faith that the Buddha was fully enlightened, then all of his teachings come under your skeptical doubt and you can pick and choose what you want like someone who only eats the frosting off a cake.


Not believing in rebirth doesn't equal non belief in the Buddha being fully awake.


No, that's called "eating the frosting off the cake". You don't want to believe in the Buddha's teaching on rebirth so you pick and choose what Dhamma teachings you want to believe in. That's called "grabbing a snake by its tail".

clw_uk wrote:
If one believes there is no rebirth and no consequences of actions performed in this life that manifest later, then one inclines to nihilism.


Straw man! Non adherence to metaphysics doesn't always entail nihilism

Granted, it is a straw man argument as well as a slippery slope argument. I regret writing it.

But, answer me this instead: what happens when you die?

clw_uk wrote:Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


The Dhamma is more to do with what is pragmatic (I.e. Useful) than what is ontological.


Again, you show that you pick and choose what Dhamma you want to believe in. Here is another part of that exact same sutta that you neglected to mention:

"Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides."

Clearly, you're not taking sides in this debate...

Birth of identification ;) if I identity with my decaying body, then I become that which dies
Through anatta, how can "I" be identified with anything that decays?

That's a view that you are clinging to. It's impermanent and will be laid down along with the five aggregates.

clw_uk wrote:Therefor there is the deathless, in this moment, to be experienced by the wise

So you're an arahant, are you? You are wise? You've experienced Nibbana? You've destroyed the taints? You're free of all greed, hate and delusion? You've lived the holy life? You've done what has to be done? You will no more come to any state of being? You can "enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints" (MN 12)?

And you're here debating on an internet forum?

:anjali:
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James
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:14 am

No, that's called "eating the frosting off the cake". You don't want to believe in the Buddha's teaching on rebirth so you pick and choose what Dhamma teachings you want to believe in. That's called "grabbing a snake by its tail".


No thats called reading my mind :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


But, answer me this instead: what happens when you die?


The perception of "me" dying is a delusion born in the present moment


"Rebirth," like "reincarnation," is a term that's used generally referring to having gone through a series of different lives, and then there are various views about whether once you get reincarnated into human form where you can go, become a frog again or something like that. . . . But the truth of the matter is, nobody really knows.

...


With awareness practice, however, one is not being asked to believe in anything or to operate from any theory - or even to regard ones own preferences for the afterlife - but to recognize the way it actually is at this moment.


..."So this helps me to recognize that I don't have to know what happens after physical death, because I cant know, and it doesn't really matter. I am not asking for some kind of affirmation to make me feel better"


Ajahn Sumedho


Ajahn Sumedh


"Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides."

Clearly, you're not taking sides in this debate...



I dont, you do
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:16 am

That's a view that you are clinging to. It's impermanent and will be laid down along with the five aggregates.


And you cant see the hypocrisy here?



So you're an arahant, are you? You are wise? You've experienced Nibbana? You've destroyed the taints? You're free of all greed, hate and delusion? You've lived the holy life? You've done what has to be done? You will no more come to any state of being? You can "enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints" (MN 12)?

And you're here debating on an internet forum?



Said like someone who hasnt read the suttas in detail, if you had you wouldnt make such a silly comment (and a poorly disguised ad homein)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:20 am

Dear clw_uk,

While I was writing that post, I felt evil, unwholesome states arising in me yet I continued to write it. And I felt disturbed and disgusted afterwards. I regret writing that post or even posting in this contentious thread. My apologies to everyone.

Clw_uk: We shall have to agree to disagree.

I wish you all happiness.

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:22 am

Mkoll wrote:Dear clw_uk,

While I was writing that post, I felt evil, unwholesome states arising in me yet I continued to write it. And I felt disturbed and disgusted afterwards. I regret writing that post or even posting in this contentious thread. My apologies to everyone.

Clw_uk: We shall have to agree to disagree.

I wish you all happiness.

:anjali:



Thank you for the honesty :)

That would show though that you are attached to notions of existing after death :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:40 am

Clw, you made a lot more sense when you were on your extended vacation..........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:43 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Clw, you made a lot more sense when you were on your extended vacation..........



White noise chat :rolleye:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:00 am

Honestly clw, who do you hold in higher esteem, yourself or the Buddha, honestly now???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:03 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Honestly clw, who do you hold in higher esteem, yourself or the Buddha, honestly now???



Well since I am all knowing :sage: :woohoo:


But seriously, play the ball not the man :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:07 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Honestly clw, who do you hold in higher esteem, yourself or the Buddha, honestly now???
You need to go way back in this gawdforsaken thread. Craig worked very hard to interpret any suggestion of rebirth in the suttas as being figurative, referring only rebirth from moment to moment sort of thing. And seemingly no evidence could count against such an interpretation. And in this he is supposedly following Buddhadasa point of view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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