the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:There are suttas that state that when there is ignorance based contact, the following links come to be.
SN, page 922 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
Its a concept that is repeated a lot in the SN


Could you provide some links to the relevant sutta(s)?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:10 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There are suttas that state that when there is ignorance based contact, the following links come to be.
SN, page 922 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
Its a concept that is repeated a lot in the SN


Could you provide some links to the relevant sutta(s)?



The sutta isn't on access to insight so the only reference i can give is the page number in the physical copy that aj. Bodhi translated, I assumed you would have this? If not I will try and track it down online.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:14 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There are suttas that state that when there is ignorance based contact, the following links come to be.
SN, page 922 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
Its a concept that is repeated a lot in the SN


Could you provide some links to the relevant sutta(s)?



The sutta isn't on access to insight so the only reference i can give is the page number in the physical copy that aj. Bodhi translated, I assumed you would have this? If not I will try and track it down online.


Yes, I've got Bikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN, but I think it's an older version. I'm currently using the internet in my local library so I haven't got it to hand.
I should be on the internet at home in a couple of weeks, which will make things much easier. :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:23 pm

Yes, I've got Bikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN, but I think it's an older version. I'm currently using the internet in my local library so I haven't got it to hand.
I should be on the internet at home in a couple of weeks, which will make things much easier. :smile:



I'll try to find a copy online if I can in the mean time :smile:


The point I was trying to make though is that D.O. is multifaceted in the Suttas, being taught operating over mind moments and also over lifetimes depending on which sutta we look at.

The moment-to-moment view can be reconciled with the lifetime view, since we could technically look at craving wanting to seek something to be born into, be it wanting to become a model or wanting to live again (Ajahn Sumedho makes use of the analogy of wanting to be born into the pleasure of eating food).
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:26 pm

Some say that Devas, and beings from other realms, as well as other realms are mental states.

Right?


Well, in the suttas the Buddha, even being the Buddha, often talked to the devas and often rebuked Mara's requests...

Does this mean that Buddha was talking to his own thoughts? Isn't that a diagnosis?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:31 pm

Alex123 wrote:Some say that Devas, and beings from other realms, as well as other realms are mental states.

Right?


Well, in the suttas the Buddha, even being the Buddha, often talked to the devas and often rebuked Mara's requests...

Does this mean that Buddha was talking to his own thoughts? Isn't that a diagnosis?



Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc

Devas you could look at either way, for me its more practical to view them as mental states.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:39 pm

clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc


Does this mean that the Buddha could have had unwholesome mental states that could tempt him (but he didn't follow them)? I don't deny this possibility, but it doesn't seem to fit the "orthodoxy" .
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:46 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc


Does this mean that the Buddha could have had unwholesome mental states that could tempt him (but he didn't follow them)? I don't deny this possibility, but it doesn't seem to fit the "orthodoxy" .



Possibly, Mara is defined in the Suttas as just being unwholesome states or stomach pains, that sort of thing

The nun Soma has entered Andhavana (Blind Man's Grove) near Savatthi to practice meditation. Mara, the embodiment of delusion, sees her there and desires to make her waver and abandon her concentration. He addresses her with a verse:

That which can be attained by seers
— The place so hard to arrive at —
Women are not able to reach,
Since they lack sufficient wisdom.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:49 pm

clw_uk wrote:
The nun Soma has entered Andhavana (Blind Man's Grove) near Savatthi to practice meditation. Mara, the embodiment of delusion, sees her there and desires to make her waver and abandon her concentration. He addresses her with a verse:


The "embodiment of delusion" is idea of the translator. I am not saying that it is wrong, but I don't remember the suttas ever say that Mara, Devas, Realms, are simply mental states that one can live in while being alive for this one life only.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:50 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There are suttas that state that when there is ignorance based contact, the following links come to be.
SN, page 922 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
Its a concept that is repeated a lot in the SN


Could you provide some links to the relevant sutta(s)?



The sutta isn't on access to insight so the only reference i can give is the page number in the physical copy that aj. Bodhi translated, I assumed you would have this? If not I will try and track it down online.


Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.

SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote:What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:57 pm


Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.

SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote:What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.


Thanks! I didn't realise it was online



"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self [Identity or "I am"]. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? [what causes the birth of "I am"]


To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. [When there is ignorant based contact then craving leads to "I am", so "I am" is "born" which is the Jati of D.O.]

And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents." ["I am" is anicca, so its constantly born and dies accordingly, as the links that lead to it are anicca]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:20 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is on Sutta Central, the first "en" button here:
http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+22.81
Specifically: http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.81

Craig: Rather than giving the page number, the sutta number (SN 22.81) would have made it much easier for people to locate on line.

:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:45 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is on Sutta Central, the first "en" button here:
http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+22.81
Specifically: http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.81

Craig: Rather than giving the page number, the sutta number (SN 22.81) would have made it much easier for people to locate on line.

:anjali:
Mike



Will do
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:47 pm

Also


"It is by clinging Ananda that "I am" occurs, not without clinging"


SN III, Sutta 83
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:48 pm

clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc

How can you say this for sure?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:01 pm

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definitely just a personification of unwholesome states and temptation etc

How can you say this for sure?

Perhaps because Māra said it was? :stirthepot:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:06 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definitely just a personification of unwholesome states and temptation etc

How can you say this for sure?

Perhaps because Māra said it was? :stirthepot:

:rofl:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc

How can you say this for sure?




Definitely was to strong a word, however the overall impression that I get is that Mara is a teaching device as just another word for the aggregates when we cling to them


"Ven. Sir, it is said, "Mara, Mara." In what way, ven. sir, might there be Mara?


When there is form Radha there might be Mara, or the Killer, or the one who is killed. Therefore Radha see form as Mara, see it as the Killer, see it as the one who is killed. See it as a disease, a dart, a tumour, as misery, as real misery. Those who see it thus see rightly."


SN III Chapter 2, Sutta 1

And so on for the other aggregates
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:09 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:26 am

culaavuso wrote:Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.

SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote:What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.


I'm still not clear as to the meaning here. Does "what is felt" refer to vedana, and if so, is it saying that vedana can be ignorant or not ignorant?
What exactly is meant by "contact with ignorance"? Does it just mean "while ignorance persists"?
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