the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:34 am

clw_uk wrote:The point I was trying to make though is that D.O. is multifaceted in the Suttas, being taught operating over mind moments and also over lifetimes depending on which sutta we look at.


But I'm still not clear how you're interpreting DO to support the idea of moment-to-moment rebirth. Could you describe the model you're using?
You've referred to ignorant contact, but which factor of contact are you assigning the ignorance to - is it sense organ, sense object or sense-consciousness?
I'd have thought that ignorant feeling would make more sense, since craving arises in dependence on feeling and craving is the problem.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:12 am

[quote
SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote:What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.][/quote]
culaavuso,
Thanks for bringing this reference here. For those looking for support for the idea of momentary rebirth, I think this is a good one. Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis. Also in the same sutta there is a talk about various views of self and how these are all fabrications born of feelings born of ignorance and the craving that arises from it. So, feelings are born and fabrications are born.......seems clear that rebirth happens for feelings and fabrications...if not for what we identify as the feeling or the fabrication then surely for the process of feeling and fabrication......and notice how the discussion of self doctrines is said to be born suggesting the rebirth of self doctrine on a moment to moment basis. That is to say that our sense of self as a fabrication is in a constant state of rebirth from moment to moment. Seems like we are getting pretty close to a complete expication of a doctrine of rebirth and all based in the moment to moment time frame......I guesss......don't know for sure......
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:17 am

chownah wrote:Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis.


All the aggregates are continually rising and falling. But I don't see how that gets us any closer to a coherent moment-to-moment interpretation of DO.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:53 am

clw_uk wrote:
Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc



Yes I agree, I don't believe there was an actual 'Devil' wandering around! I think its pretty clear that in SN 5.2 Soma sutta, Mara represents the doubts the nun has been having about being a woman - and In this translation Mara is called " the embodiment of delusion".

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.002.olen.html

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:33 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The point I was trying to make though is that D.O. is multifaceted in the Suttas, being taught operating over mind moments and also over lifetimes depending on which sutta we look at.


But I'm still not clear how you're interpreting DO to support the idea of moment-to-moment rebirth. Could you describe the model you're using?
You've referred to ignorant contact, but which factor of contact are you assigning the ignorance to - is it sense organ, sense object or sense-consciousness?
I'd have thought that ignorant feeling would make more sense, since craving arises in dependence on feeling and craving is the problem.




The way I "work" it is that ignorance is one thing, contact another, sense object a third and feeling being fourth as their meeting place.


Feeling isn't ignorant, feeling is feeling. However Ignorance transforms feelings into craving through pursuing.


An example I can give is when I'm in meditation and my legs hurt. When there is ignorance, then there is aversion to the feeling and the birth in the mind of "I am in pain etc" and the dukkha that is bound with that. However when there is no ignorance, then painful feeling is just a sensation. There is no "me" created and its as if the painful feeling isn't there, feeling has ceased. This I feel is the cessation of the mind and body.


An analogy I could give would be full awareness as an island and feelings as an ocean. When there is ignorance, then feelings flood the Island (mind) and the mind is overcome and concocts craving which leads to Self and dukkha etc. However when there is full awareness and knowledge, then feelings break upon the shore and do not flood the mind. In essence they are not allowed into the mind to remain and be pursued. This then cuts off the concocting of craving, ends any self or identity. It ends me and mine and leaves us with emptiness and peace. This I feel Is the island that you cannot go beyond.


So going back the the example of painful legs in meditation, when there is knowledge through awareness (of the thee marks) then the painful feelings just breaks upon the shore, they arent pursued and allowed to flood the island of conciousness.
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:37 am

I'd have thought that ignorant feeling would make more sense, since craving arises in dependence on feeling and craving is the problem.



Feeling is always there, its the reaction to it based on our ignorance that is the problem.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:33 am

"There is Bhikkhus the mind, there are mental phenomena, there is the element of ignorance. When the uninstructed ... is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, "I am" occurs to him. [So when there is Ignorance and contact, feeling is pursued which gives "birth" to "I am" in a certain mental sphere, depending on intentional actions]


"I am this" occurs to him; "I will be" [Reborn?] and "I will not be" [Reborn?]


"I will consist of of form" and "I will be formless" [I will be a formless deva seems to be a false notion born from ignorance]


"I will be percipient; and "I will be non-percipient" ....


"The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed .... abandons ignorance and the arising of knowledge. With the fading of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge;

"I am" does not occur; "I am this does not occur to him


"I will be" does not occur to him [I will be reborn doest enter his head?] "I will not be" does not occur to him [So metahysical views dont arise?]


SN III 47.5




That quite clearly shows D.O. happening in the moment and being psychological in nature.


If I am correct in relation to the non thought of "Will I be alive or not after death" when enlightened, then it would tie in with this sutta which describes an Arahants take on views and metaphysical questions.


""A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another.


Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.""


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:52 am

The "I will be" and "I will not be" are also the foundation of the view of Annihilationism


So that speculative view arises just because of ignorance based contact, and the birthing of "I am"


So when ignorance is dispelled, then "I will be" or "I will not be" does not arise, so the view of anniliationism is abandoned and set aside (same for the other speculative views)



This is also why debating about what happens to an Arahant after death is pointless, because when there is no more ignorance then concepts such as "existence and non-existence" just simply do not arise in the mind.

The flood of views has been abandoned, dukkha has been abandoned :woohoo:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:51 am

clw_uk wrote:The "I will be" and "I will not be" are also the foundation of the view of Annihilationism


So that speculative view arises just because of ignorance based contact, and the birthing of "I am"


So when ignorance is dispelled, then "I will be" or "I will not be" does not arise, so the view of anniliationism is abandoned and set aside (same for the other speculative views)



This is also why debating about what happens to an Arahant after death is pointless, because when there is no more ignorance then concepts such as "existence and non-existence" just simply do not arise in the mind.

The flood of views has been abandoned, dukkha has been abandoned :woohoo:

I agree with you, the buddha never declared what happens after death to Arahants and himself.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:13 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis.


All the aggregates are continually rising and falling. But I don't see how that gets us any closer to a coherent moment-to-moment interpretation of DO.

I would say that if the elements of DO are constantly being reborn that in itself is a coherent moment to moment interpretation of DO. What are you looking for? Are you looking for some over arching self which represents DO which gets reborn?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:17 am

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis.


All the aggregates are continually rising and falling. But I don't see how that gets us any closer to a coherent moment-to-moment interpretation of DO.

I would say that if the elements of DO are constantly being reborn that in itself is a coherent moment to moment interpretation of DO. What are you looking for? Are you looking for some over arching self which represents DO which gets reborn?
chownah


No, I'm looking for a intelligible and coherent explanation of DO which is consistent with the way the nidanas are described in SN12.2, and consistent with the way that phassa, vedana, etc are described in the suttas. The moment-to-moment interpretations of rebirth only seem to work if one starts redefining key terms.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:30 am

clw_uk wrote:Feeling isn't ignorant, feeling is feeling. However Ignorance transforms feelings into craving through pursuing.
An example I can give is when I'm in meditation and my legs hurt. When there is ignorance, then there is aversion to the feeling and the birth in the mind of "I am in pain etc" and the dukkha that is bound with that. However when there is no ignorance, then painful feeling is just a sensation. There is no "me" created and its as if the painful feeling isn't there, feeling has ceased. This I feel is the cessation of the mind and body.


I broadly agree with your analysis here, but I'm still not sure about your idea that the birth of I am results from the aversion. It looks to me the other way round, ie the aversion is a result of underlying self-view. In other words the aversion to the pain stems from the underlying assumption that there is an I to which the pain is happening. And of course these assumptions of self are fetters which need to be overcome.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:04 am

In this sutta it mentions, "a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth". Seems like people usually think of this in terms of being subject to ones own birth.....which of course is an expression of a doctrine of self. This sutta clearly talks about being freed of birth but it does not indicate in any way that it is the birth of the individual. It talks about being freed from death but it does not indicate that it is the death of the individual. It sort of points to the non rebirth of the processes which lead to suffering......maybe rebirth can be viewed as pointing to the rebirth of the false sense of self as supported by the many facets of DO and associated path factors such as mentioned below.
chownah

AN 10.108
PTS: A v 218
Virecana (Tikicchaka) Sutta: A Purgative
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Monks, doctors give a purgative for warding off diseases caused by bile, diseases caused by phlegm, diseases caused by the internal wind property. There is a purging there; I don't say that there's not, but it sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails. So I will teach you the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "Now, what is the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair?

"In one who has right view, wrong view is purged away, and the many evil, unskillful mental qualities that come into play in dependence on wrong view are purged away as well, while the many skillful mental qualities that depend on right view go to the culmination of their development.

"In one who has right resolve, wrong resolve is purged away...

"In one who has right speech, wrong speech is purged away...

"In one who has right action, wrong action is purged away...

"In one who has right livelihood, wrong livelihood is purged away...

"In one who has right effort, wrong effort is purged away...

"In one who has right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is purged away...

"In one who has right concentration, wrong concentration is purged away...

"In one who has right knowledge, wrong knowledge is purged away...

"In one who has right release, wrong release is purged away, and the many evil, unskillful mental qualities that come into play in dependence on wrong release are purged away as well, while the many skillful mental qualities that depend on right release go to the culmination of their development.

"This, monks, is the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:35 am

I broadly agree with your analysis here, but I'm still not sure about your idea that the birth of I am results from the aversion.



I can see where you are coming from but I would have to disagree, it doesnt match what I read in the Suttas or from my own experience


"There is Bhikkhus the mind, there are mental phenomena, there is the element of ignorance. When the uninstructed ... is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, "I am" occurs to him


SN III 47.5

So this explains that when there is a reaction to aversion, because of ignorance, "I am" comes to be.

It therefore naturally follows that when we dont sucumb to aversion etc, then "I am" does not arise.


However if I agree with you for the sake of argument, then I have to ask where this sense of "I am" comes from if it is not caused by ignorance based contact?

What is its origination?
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dr. Dukkha » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:46 pm

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:51 pm

The Middle Way.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Dr. Dukkha wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?


Do you have a quote reference?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Dr. Dukkha wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?


Do you have a quote reference?

Sutra number 57 majjhima nikaya.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:39 pm

The sutra is repeated in the anguttara nikaya. I will check this later.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:09 am

Thanks Nikaya


12. "What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 8.html#dog


This is the aspiration to be free from Dukkha, and the following of the NEFP which leads to nibbana and the ending of D.O.

The ending of grasping and the birth of "I am", and so the ending of intentional action. It is also the ending of kamma-vipaka (result of kamma) since the result of kamma can only be experienced when a "self" is generated into a mental state such as like an animal, deva or hungry ghost (such as a crack addict) through grasping.


""And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.""


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... kamma.html


The NEFP is not Kamma generative since its not based on grasping and the constant birthing of "me"

Its not Kamma resultant since the NEFP doesnt lead to birth of "self" in the various mental states, or "realms" as they are worded in the suttas.


:popcorn:
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