the great rebirth debate

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:48 pm

culaavuso wrote:
Aloka wrote:Can you give references for your quotes, please Martin ?


They all appear to be taken from MN 130: Devadūta Sutta.


Thank you, culaavuso :anjali:

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:44 pm

Dukkha seems like a particularly difficult term to translate because of the broad spectrum of experiences it covers. It's true that "stress" isn't the appropriate term to describe hellish torments. But "suffering" can also seem inappropriate when used to describe less intense forms of dukkha, such as sadness over impermanence or simply the vague feeling that things are "off'". Not getting what one wants, for instance, is considered a form of dukkha, but to call it suffering might be overkill.

So "stress" and "suffering" might both be accurate terms depending on which flavor of dukkha one talking about, Hells ckearly represent the extreme end of the spectrum.

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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:30 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Dukkha seems like a particularly difficult term to translate because of the broad spectrum of experiences it covers. It's true that "stress" isn't the appropriate term to describe hellish torments. But "suffering" can also seem inappropriate when used to describe less intense forms of dukkha, such as sadness over impermanence or simply the vague feeling that things are "off'". Not getting what one wants, for instance, is considered a form of dukkha, but to call it suffering might be overkill.

So "stress" and "suffering" might both be accurate terms depending on which flavor of dukkha one talking about, Hells ckearly represent the extreme end of the spectrum.

:goodpost:

Yes, that's why I think it's better to leave dukkha untranslated and just let people know there are different kinds of dukkha (see below). It's similar in English: one word can mean many different things depending upon the context. For example, there are different kinds of what we could describe as pain. There is the pain of stubbing your toe, the pain of losing a loved one, the pain being stressed out about work, etc. There are lots of other ways one could use the one word.

SN 38.14 wrote:On one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying in Magadha in Nalaka Village. Then Jambukhadika the wanderer went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."

"But is there a path, is there a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"Then what is the path, what is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path, my friend — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, this is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"It's an auspicious path, my friend, an auspicious practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness — enough for the sake of heedfulness."
Peace,
James

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:35 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Dukkha seems like a particularly difficult term to translate because of the broad spectrum of experiences it covers. It's true that "stress" isn't the appropriate term to describe hellish torments. But "suffering" can also seem inappropriate when used to describe less intense forms of dukkha, such as sadness over impermanence or simply the vague feeling that things are "off'". Not getting what one wants, for instance, is considered a form of dukkha, but to call it suffering might be overkill.

So "stress" and "suffering" might both be accurate terms depending on which flavor of dukkha one talking about, Hells ckearly represent the extreme end of the spectrum.


These are the meanings of dukkha written in the glossary at ATI: "Stress; suffering; pain; distress; discontent."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#d

I've also seen it defined as: "unsatisfactoriness"

.

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:39 pm

Weltschmerz is a fairly good term for dukkha, or at least similarly-shaped.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:31 am

Then what are you saying one should do? Given your analysis, what is your solution? If one took your analysis to heart, as I assume you do, what do you do differently?



Rest in awareness of not knowing


In other words, be aware and watch how thoughts about like, dislike or doubts about rebirth arise in the mind, and how "me" is created around the mind object (rebirth)


All is anicca (views change), all is dukkha (stressful if clung to "I believe/disbelieve in rebirth) and all is anatta (the idea of rebirth is nothing to do with you, it's a passing mental dhamma).


Observe, watch and let it cease ... :)



""A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior.


Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides.

He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:40 am

"Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion"

The idea of rebirth is a mental dhamma that is cognised, just like the idea of "God"


Concerning mental dhamma, a follower of Dhamma doesn't get involved. It's just observed as a mental event, like a painful pin prick is just observed :)


Nothing is made of it, it is what it is


"He does not form the least notion [of acceptance or of aversion]"


Rebirth is not accepted by him, nor rejected. This is the abandoning of "the flood of views" :)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:51 am

""Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The escape from the sticky web of metaphysical arguments :)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:57 am

clw_uk wrote:Rest in awareness of not knowing

The penultimate goal of Buddhism is wisdom, i.e. knowing (MN 24). Practicing "not knowing" doesn't lead to knowing.

clw_uk wrote:In other words, be aware and watch how thoughts about like, dislike or doubts about rebirth arise in the mind, and how "me" is created around the mind object (rebirth)

Thinking that '"me" is created around the mind object (rebirth)' is another view.

clw_uk wrote:All is anicca (views change), all is dukkha (stressful if clung to "I believe/disbelieve in rebirth) and all is anatta (the idea of rebirth is nothing to do with you, it's a passing mental dhamma).

The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.

~~~

And where is the Noble Eightfold Path? Where's virtue? Where's right concentration?
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:57 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Rest in awareness of not knowing

The penultimate goal of Buddhism is wisdom, i.e. knowing (MN 24). Practicing "not knowing" doesn't lead to knowing.

clw_uk wrote:In other words, be aware and watch how thoughts about like, dislike or doubts about rebirth arise in the mind, and how "me" is created around the mind object (rebirth)

Thinking that '"me" is created around the mind object (rebirth)' is another view.

clw_uk wrote:All is anicca (views change), all is dukkha (stressful if clung to "I believe/disbelieve in rebirth) and all is anatta (the idea of rebirth is nothing to do with you, it's a passing mental dhamma).

The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.

~~~

And where is the Noble Eightfold Path? Where's virtue? Where's right concentration?



Where is your answer to the above sutta? :)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:58 am

clw_uk wrote:Where is your answer to the above sutta? :)

Which one?

And BTW, please answer my questions before I answer yours.
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:59 am

The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.



Unless you discern the escape, see the above sutta ;)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:59 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Where is your answer to the above sutta? :)

Which one?

And BTW, please answer my questions before I answer yours.



Have a crack at both, you ignored the both of them :)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:00 am

clw_uk wrote:
The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.



Unless you discern the escape, see the above sutta ;)

That's Anathapindika, not you. Unless you claim to discern the escape, yourself?
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:01 am

The penultimate goal of Buddhism is wisdom, i.e. knowing (MN 24). Practicing "not knowing" doesn't lead to knowing.



So knowing not knowing isn't knowing?
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:04 am

clw_uk wrote:Have a crack at both, you ignored the both of them :)

All of the suttas you've quoted on this page are dealing with noble disciples, not putthujjanas. If all one had to do was read a sutta and believe they understand it to become a noble disciple, we'd all be noble disciples.

Sorry clw_uk, it's not that easy no matter how much you want it to be so.
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:05 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.



Unless you discern the escape, see the above sutta ;)

That's Anathapindika, not you. Unless you claim to discern the escape, yourself?




The escape is seeing how contact + ignorance + feeling = me and all the view points that come with "me"



By seeing it, you no longer follow that highway ;)


That's the escape "as it is present"


The other people in the sutta are so stuck in ignorance and clinging that they can't see the way out from metaphysical views (Eternalism, annihilationism, reincarnation, god etc) and so can't see the way out from dukkha either.


As Buddha said, they try to rise up from one view point while being bogged down by another, lost in a jungle of views which are full of thorns ;)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:07 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Have a crack at both, you ignored the both of them :)

All of the suttas you've quoted on this page are dealing with noble disciples, not putthujjanas. If all one had to do was read a sutta and believe they understand it to become a noble disciple, we'd all be noble disciples.

Sorry clw_uk, it's not that easy no matter how much you want it to be so.



So knowing not knowing isn't knowing?
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:09 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.



Unless you discern the escape, see the above sutta ;)

That's Anathapindika, not you. Unless you claim to discern the escape, yourself?




I'm pretty sure anathapindika wasn't awakened until death, so at this point he wasn't an arahant, which would seem to shed some sceptical doubt on your assertion.
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:11 am

The view that everything is anicca, dukkha, and anatta is another view. The view that everything is a "passing mental dhamma" is another view.



If a train hits me square in the face, that not a view but a fact of existence.


See the difference ;)
"When there is no person, there are no problems"
Ajhan Chah


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