the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:54 pm

daverupa wrote:There's no prevention of consciousness in that way; it isn't to be ended but to be fully comprehended. What ends are the fermentations.


So how do we interpret cessation of consciousness in DO ( cessation mode )?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:59 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:I was thinking more of Buddha's teachings with regard to consciousness, rather than English grammar.


Perhaps it would be more fruitful then to discuss the meanings of some particular teaching of the Buddha's rather than the meaning of English words. Is there a particular discourse that is motivating these questions?

Ron-The-Elder wrote:In the case of consciousness subsiding, are we unconscious, or not conscious?
In the case of consciousness not arising, are we unconscious, or not conscious?


These questions seem to assume that consciousness is a possession of one's self ("we"), and that one's self somehow exists apart from the aggregates.

MN 44: Cūḷavedalla Sutta wrote:There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma
...
He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.


SN 12.12: Moḷiyaphagguna Sutta wrote:When this was said, Ven.-Moliya-Phagguna said to the Blessed One, "Lord, who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feeds.' If I were to say 'feeds,' then 'Who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'Consciousness-nutriment for what?' And the valid answer is, 'Consciousness-nutriment for the production of future coming-into-being. When that has come into being and exists, then the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.'"
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Dearest friend culaavuso,

The questions arise from my understanding of Dependent Origination and/or Dependent Co-Arising:

as stated in my first post as regards the rebirth sequence:

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'


If some state arises from a cause, then it also subsides (is extinguished) when that cause is removed.

Since consciousness is the root cause of birth, aging, disease, and death, othewise known as dukkha (this entire ball of suffering), then it stands to reason that the extinguishment or subsiding of consciousness causes dukkha to subside. By the same token if consciousness never arises, then dukkha cannot arise.

From this reasoning it follows that if there is no consciousness, there can be no dukkha. But, can we say that if someone is unconscious, can they suffer? And, by the same token, can dukkha arise if we are "not conscious" of it? For example, if I put you under with a general anesthetic and poke you with a needle, do you suffer?

My experience has been that when unconscious such as under the influence of a general anesthetic, one can even have one's heart removed from their chest and feel nothing, whereas if they were conscious they would be in horrendous pain.

On the other hand, if I removed a person's heart from their chest while they were unconscious, and kept it out, they would die, which is another aspect of dukkha.

In the one case, being unconcious eliminates the aspect of dukkha called pain. In the latter case making one unconscious and then permanently removing their heart allows another aspect of dukkha, "death", to arise.

Right? :coffee:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:40 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:There's no prevention of consciousness in that way; it isn't to be ended but to be fully comprehended. What ends are the fermentations.


So how do we interpret cessation of consciousness in DO ( cessation mode )?


Ron-The-Elder wrote:Right? :coffee:


SN 22.5 wrote: "And what is the disappearance of consciousness?

"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness, any delight in consciousness ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:21 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:If some state arises from a cause, then it also subsides (is extinguished) when that cause is removed.

Since consciousness is the root cause of birth, aging, disease, and death, othewise known as dukkha (this entire ball of suffering), then it stands to reason that the extinguishment or subsiding of consciousness causes dukkha to subside. By the same token if consciousness never arises, then dukkha cannot arise.


It seems that consciousness also arises dependent on conditions.

SN 12.65: Nagara Sutta wrote:When there is name-and-form, consciousness comes to be; consciousness has name-and-form as its condition.


SN 12.23: Upanisa Sutta wrote:Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.


SN 22.95: Pheṇa­piṇḍ­ūpama Sutta wrote:"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.


Ron-The-Elder wrote:From this reasoning it follows that if there is no consciousness, there can be no dukkha. But, can we say that if someone is unconscious, can they suffer? And, by the same token, can dukkha arise if we are "not conscious" of it? For example, if I put you under with a general anesthetic and poke you with a needle, do you suffer?

Is a dreaming person "unconscious"? It seems that this idea of "unconscious" is an idea arising based on consciousness of an experience where "unconscious" is used as a label. As such it seems that "unconscious" only arises when there is consciousness.

DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta wrote:Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely, mentality-materiality.

“It is to this extent, Ānanda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness.


AN 4.174: Mahākoṭṭhita Sutta wrote:However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:42 am

daverupa wrote:
SN 22.5 wrote: "And what is the disappearance of consciousness?

"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness, any delight in consciousness ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.


That's an interesting sutta though I find it somewhat ambiguous. I'm not sure what "disappearance" means in this sentence. In context it seems to indicate cessation of clinging to the aggregates rather than cessation of the aggregates themselves?

"And what is the disappearance of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness"?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:11 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:In context it seems to indicate cessation of clinging to the aggregates rather than cessation of the aggregates themselves?


Well, exactly. The cessation of aggregates, strictly speaking, only happens for arahants whose lifespan runs out. Prior to this aggregates yet persist for a time, for an arahant, though absent upadana.

The upadana-aggregates otherwise perdure for an individual, theoretical issues of aggregate-pause such as dreamless sleep & cessation-attainments notwithstanding.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:21 pm

culaavuso wrote:
SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.



So presumably "escape from consciousness" here means the cessation of clinging?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:24 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
culaavuso wrote:
SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.



So presumably "escape from consciousness" here means the cessation of clinging?


:thumbsup:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:25 pm

Now I am wondering if the problem is that the word "consciousness" is being translated with the wrong denotation. Consider the following:

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Your search located 72 occurrence(s) of Consciousness in the entire dictionary.
Click here for a display with more context.

Occurrences 1-72:

Attan :-- perception, self-- consciousness (opp. para˚) D iii.231;
Anupubba :e cessation of all consciousness. These are 9 stages, cons
Abhicetasika :n the clearest consciousness. On the spelling see ābh
Abhisañcet...:] to bring to consciousness, think out, devise, plan
Aviññā...:ut feeling or consciousness, unfeeling DhA i.6 (savi
Ākāsa :nbounded space. The consciousness of this sphere forms the
Ādīnava : iv.8 sq.-- saññā consciousness of danger D i.7); iii.253
Āpātha :, focus, field (of consciousness or perception; cp. Dhs tr
Ārammaṇa :t of thought or consciousness, the outward constituent
Āloka :ht J vi 459.-- saññā consciousness or faculty of sight or pe
Āhāra :f.), (4) viññāṇ˚ of consciousness. Thus at M i.261; D iii.2
Uppāda :123 (citt˚ state of consciousness); iv.65 (id.); Dh 182, 19
Okkamati : the question ʻ if consciousness were not to develop in th
Kasiṇa :ection (or perhaps consciousness) M ii.14; D iii.268, 290;
Kāya :s saviññāṇaka, having consciousness A iv.53= S ii.252=S iii.8
Kāya :dhd 69, 70;-- viññāṇa consciousness by means of touch, sensor
Kāya :ans of touch, sensory consciousness D iii.243; Dhs 556, 585,
Kāya :tu element of touch-- consciousness Dhs 560; Vbh 88; Kvu 12;-
Kusala : virtue, merit, good consciousness (citta omitted; cp. DhsA
Khandha :rā (coefficients of consciousness), viññāṇa (conscious
Khandha :iousness), viññāṇa (consciousness). For further ref. see r
Khandha :a of discriminative consciousness) in Def. of manas: manind
Cakkhu :e Nd2 177;-- viññāṇa consciousness by means of visual percep
Citta : the viññāṇakkhandha (consciousness), (b) the other 3 mental
Cinteti & c...:feeling), the consciousness S iv.68. Its seat is freq
Cetasika :with citta as bare consciousness, practically superseded i
Divā :1241; Sn 679;-- saññā consciousness by day, daily c. D iii.22
Dukkha :(kamma);-- saññā the consciousness of pain Nett 27;-- samuda
Dhātu : elements in sense-- consciousness: referring to the 6 ajjha
Nānatta : 263, 282;-- saññā consciousness of diversity (Rh. D.:"ide
Nānatta :i.119; Mrs. Rh. D."consciousness of the manifold") M i.3;
Nānatta :n having a varying consciousness (cp. ˚kāya), D i.31 (cp
Nicca :ā (& adj. saññin) the consciousness or idea of permanence (ad
Nirodha :ilation (of senses, consciousness, feeling & being in gener
Nirodha :saññā perception or consciousness of annihilation D iii.251
Pakati :a ordinary or normal consciousness Kvu 615 (cp. Kvu trsl. 35
Paṭikkūla :ñā (āhāre) the consciousness of the impurity of materi
Paṭiccasa...:ng substance (consciousness, Cpd.; cognition Mrs. Rh.
Paṭhavī :2.-- saññā earth consciousness M. ii.105; A iv.312; v.7
Pariññāta : with bhāvita: consciousness is to be well studied, in
Bhava :ess, i. e. subliminal consciousness or subconscious life-- co
Bhūmi :age, level; state of consciousness, Vin. i.17; Vbh 322 sq.;
Madhuraka :ndition of losing consciousness through intoxication. Rh.
Mano & Mana...:unctioning of consciousness, while viñnāṇa repres
Mano & Mana...:ive aspect of consciousness (cp. Mrs. Rh. D. Buddhist
Mano & Mana...: threshold of consciousness VbhA 41; DhsA 425, cp. Dh
Viññāṇa : life, general consciousness (as function of mind and
Viññāṇa :D. (K.S. ii.4)"consciousness"; Geiger (in Z. f. B. iv.
Viññāṇa :, or"endowment consciousness," viz. the individual tra
Viññāṇa :jhāna.-- āhāra consciousness (i. e. vital principle) s
Viññāṇa :inging them to consciousness in any kind of life-- app
Viññāṇa :("standing for consciousness" &"platform," ˚patiṭ
Viññāṇa :sln"station of consciousness"), 282; =A iv.39. Both th
Vipariyesa :r of perception, consciousness & views, cp. Kvu trsln 17
Visaññin :one who has lost consciousness; also in meaning"of unsou
Sankhāra :: coefficient (of consciousness as well as of physical li
Sankhāra :end to come, into consciousness at the uprising of a citt
Sankhāra :nergies (is vital consciousness), the second linkage in t
Sangaha : e. constitution of consciousness, phase Miln 40.-- 4. rece
Saññā :M i.108) 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the th
Saññā :l qualities).-- 3. consciousness D i.180 sq.; M i.108; Vbh
Saññā :-- nâsaññā neither consciousness nor unconsciousness D iii
Saññā :rodha cessation of consciousness and sensation M i.160, 30
Saññā : viratta free from consciousness, an Arahant, Sn 847.-- vi
Saññā : emancipation from consciousness Sn 1071 sq.; Miln 159=Vin
Sati :] memory, recognition, consciousness, D i.180; ii.292; Miln 77
Sati :on, conscience, self-- consciousness D i.19; iii.31, 49, 213,
Santati :itta˚ continuity of consciousness Kvu 458; cp. Cpd. 6, 1531
Santāna :tta˚ continuity of consciousness Cpd. 1677. Santānaka San
Samāpatti : the infinity of consciousness, realm of nothingness, re
Samāpatti :realm of neither consciousness nor unconsciousness Ps i.
Saviññā...: possessed of consciousness, conscious, animate A i.8


Compare the above search for "consciousness" to the results of a search for "awareness":

Occurrences 1-2:

Occurrences 1-2:

1. Cinteti & ceteti : (page 269)
is never expld by cet & therefore appears to be the more frequent & familiar form. Meaning: (a) (intr.) to think, to reflect, to be of opinion, Grouped with (phuṭṭho) vedeti, ceteti, sañjānāti he has the feeling, the awareness (of the feeling), the consciousness S iv.68. Its seat is freq. mentioned with manasā (in the heart), viz. manasā diṭṭhigatāni cintayanto Sn 834; na pāpaŋ manasā pi cetaye Pv ii.97; J
2. Saññā : (page 670)
1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the third khandha Vin i.13; M i.300; S iii.3 sq.; Dhs 40, 58, 61, 113; VbhA 42. -- 2. sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensations, awareness M i.293; A iii.443 (nibbāna˚); S iii.87; Sn 732 (saññāya uparodhanā dukkhakkhayo hoti; expld as "kāmasaññā" SnA); Miln 61; Dhs 4; DhsA 110, 200 (rūpa˚ perception of materiala


Note that "awareness" and "consciousness" are considered synonymous in the case of both. Yet the meaning of each in Buddhist practice and understanding is often quite different:

The Cittas

Awareness is the process of cittas experiencing objects. For a citta to arise it must have an object (aaramma.na). The object may be a color, sound, smell, taste, something tangible, or a mental object. These are the six external objects. Strictly speaking a mental object can be an internal phenomenon, such as a feeling, a thought, or an idea, but as forming the objective sphere of experience they are all classed as external. Corresponding to these external objects there are six internal sense faculties, called "doors" since they are the portals through which the objects enter the field of cognition. These are the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. Each of the five physical sense faculties can receive only its appropriate object; the mind door, however, can receive both its own proper mental objects as well as the objects of the five physical senses. When a door receives its object, there arises a corresponding state of consciousness, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. The union of the object, the door or sense faculty, and the consciousness is called "contact" (phassa). There can be no awareness without contact. For contact to occur all three components must be present — object, door, and consciousness. If one is missing there will be no contact. The process of the arising of consciousness and the subsequent train of events is analyzed in detail in the Abhidhamma. A study of this analysis will show that only "bare phenomena" are taking place and that there is no "self" involved in this process. This is the no-self characteristic of existence.


source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kusala » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:04 am

3-Year-Old Remembers Past Life & Identifies His Murderer

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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:40 pm

The buried bones and burial site of the person killed with the axe are interesting.

The murder weapon should have been much more corroded than the one shown in the photo.

What were the names of the elders and the boy?

What was the murdered person's name?

Was there a forensics examination of the remains, which was correlated by qualified medical examiners? If so, what was the evidence, which proved the identity of the bones? (DNA, Dental, Biometrics)?

If so, what was the result?

Buddha....."Verify and validate!"....Kalama Sutta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Hieros Gamos » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:43 pm

Three year olds are known to be reliable.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:03 pm

I 'ear what you are saying! :jumping:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:53 am

It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanjay PS » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:39 am

BlackBird wrote:It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack


Thats a wonderful post Jack . It doesn't matter , all that matters is about letting go.............

with much admiration ,
sanjay
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:49 am

BlackBird wrote:It's funny. Rebirth used to be so important to me. But the more I become passionately involved in solving the existential crisis of my existence, the more rebirth seems to fade into the background. It is enough that the possibility exists of spontaneously reborn beings, I accept what the Buddha has said out of faith and because existentially the matter is settled. It is enough that the possibility lies open for me, to accept the Buddha at his word and get straight back to what matters - The pressing concern of present suffering, of the nature of my own experience and the unabating disatisfaction that life as a putthujana entails.

I don't intend to be posting any responses, or come back till the job is done but I thought a few people might be interested to see how views change over time.

with kindness (finally)
Jack


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Re: Rebirth

Postby robpiso » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:27 pm

@ Nehemia83

The point is not to think about what is not the Self.
Why?
Because if you think, for instance, about an afterworld, you must think about death, and death will have a hold on you.
All you have to think about, is to get unbounded; not about Nibbana or any other such state.
You must get rid of everything that is not the Self; and rebirth is such a thing.

Cheers.
Last edited by robpiso on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebirth

Postby Aloka » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:21 am

If one is constantly worrying about rebirth and other lives, then the freshness of the here and now gets neglected. :)

There's also already a 263 page rebirth thread on the website:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41

:anjali:
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Re: Rebirth

Postby robpiso » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:13 pm

Aloka wrote:the freshness of the here and now

O, speculations about the Future (Aparantakappika) - Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now
(Ditthadhammanibbānavāda) - That does not seem very "Buddhistic".
Brahmajāla Sutta http://bit.ly/1uO03N3
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