the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:16 am

Whats to prove? There have been countless beings who have awakened to the truth taught by the Buddha as contained in the tipitaka the past 2600 years.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:52 pm

BlackBird wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Some of us want to end suffering without ending our life.


Respectfully Sean, that's a bit of a contradiction, unless of course you are referring to 'our life' merely in the conventional sense.

Alas, it doesn't end with death. No I have not seen this for myself, but I doubt the Buddha would have bothered spending his whole 'life' teaching the Dhamma if it were otherwise.

metta
Jack :heart:


By "ending our life", I meant suicide. The comment was in response to the notion that if rebirth is ignored, suicide becomes a viable option to end suffering. However, with rebirth out of the picture, suicide is not the only viable option to end suffering. Instead of killing myself, I can seek liberation in this very life, as the Buddha taught. Then I will have ended my suffering without ending my life (i.e., suicide). And if, as it turns out, rebirth is real... bonus points for having ended the cycle of rebirth, too.

The whole suicide argument is disingenuous at best. If I didn't care about liberation in this very life, I'd be a jain or something.

So... the suicide argument doesn't work. The kamma argument hasn't gone anywhere. Can anybody actually argue for the necessity of belief in rebirth without resorting to "because that's (my understanding of) what the Buddha taught"?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:54 pm

bodom wrote:Whats to prove? There have been countless beings who have awakened to the truth taught by the Buddha as contained in the tipitaka the past 2600 years.

:anjali:


Great, I'd love to talk with one of these awakened individuals. Could you point me to one?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:26 pm

seanpdx wrote:Great, I'd love to talk with one of these awakened individuals. Could you point me to one?

To be honest, if I knew someone I believed was awakened, I wouldn't point him out to you — I wouldn't want to disturb his peace with these kind of foolish "discussions."

If you're serious about wanting to meet one, get your pilgrim shoes on and start searching. :reading:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:40 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Great, I'd love to talk with one of these awakened individuals. Could you point me to one?

To be honest, if I knew someone I believed was awakened, I wouldn't point him out to you — I wouldn't want to disturb his peace with these kind of foolish "discussions."

If you're serious about wanting to meet one, get your pilgrim shoes on and start searching. :reading:


:bow: :bow: :bow:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:56 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Great, I'd love to talk with one of these awakened individuals. Could you point me to one?

To be honest, if I knew someone I believed was awakened, I wouldn't point him out to you — I wouldn't want to disturb his peace with these kind of foolish "discussions."

If you're serious about wanting to meet one, get your pilgrim shoes on and start searching. :reading:


Good thing the Buddha had more compassion than this.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:16 pm

Image Bhante
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:20 pm

seanpdx wrote:Good thing the Buddha had more compassion than this.

What? Like this?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:57 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Good thing the Buddha had more compassion than this.

What? Like this?


Yes, exactly like that. Thank you for pointing out to me that I am not worthy of speaking with an arahant. It was obviously my own foolish pride that made me believe I was good enough for such a thing, and that such an enlightened person would ever want to help anyone as lowly as me. And you, in your great wisdom and loving kindness, have spared me from spewing hot blood, for which I am most grateful. You have opened my eyes. I shall henceforth no longer try to help any of the poor wretches that society has thrown away, for they are simply not worthy of anyone's help. They should likely all be removed from the general population, lest they disturb the peace.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:01 am

Greetings,

I'm enforcing a brief "time out" on this topic.

Rest assured, it will be re-opened... but I think it is a good time to pause, take breath, and consider what we wish to achieve through our participation in this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:59 am

Greetings,

This topic has been re-opened.

Please ensure compliance with the...

Forum Guidelines
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2

and...

Appropriate conduct within the Dhammic free-for-all forum
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=175

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:22 am

seanpdx wrote:However, with rebirth out of the picture, suicide is not the only viable option to end suffering. Instead of killing myself, I can seek liberation in this very life, as the Buddha taught. Then I will have ended my suffering without ending my life (i.e., suicide). And if, as it turns out, rebirth is real... bonus points for having ended the cycle of rebirth, too.

The whole suicide argument is disingenuous at best. If I didn't care about liberation in this very life, I'd be a jain or something.

So... the suicide argument doesn't work.


- First you say it's not the only viable option.
- Then you say that you can get enlightened in this very life, saving the need for suicide.
- Finally you say that the suicide argument doesn't work, but no logical reasoning provided for such a conclusion.


Can anybody actually argue for the necessity of belief in rebirth without resorting to "because that's (my understanding of) what the Buddha taught"?



Well, yes they can - Because thus far you've done nothing to refute either argument, except to say in one way or another that you're keen to get enlightened in this very life.

Furthermore my friend, since you're quite willing to play, then bend the logical fallacy game, here's a hell of an appeal to authority:

Find me a meditation master who has denied literal rebirth. Find me just one who has said: "You know this re-birth business, these 4 stages of sainthood, the multiple suttas which list annihilationism/materialism/agnosticism as a wrong view and the continuity of kamma-vipaka? Well they're wrong, they got it wrong, yep sorry the Buddha actually taught these things as skillful means/he didn't teach these things at all, they were supplanted into the suttas/These things were taught to people who didn't understand the higher truth."

Remember, as practitioners we must inevitably turn to those who have authority in practice for guidance, what are they saying about this issue?

Rebirth denial is a modern curiosity, and an understandable product of disillusioned Western agnostics coming across a doctrine that's a little less pushy than all this 'god' business. But open your heart to the possibility of rebirth, a working hypothesis if you must, it's a lot easier than wrangling with all these implausible and inconsistent theories.

Hope you're having a good day Sean, if not may you be well and good, if so may it continue
metta
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:06 pm

BlackBird wrote:
seanpdx wrote:However, with rebirth out of the picture, suicide is not the only viable option to end suffering. Instead of killing myself, I can seek liberation in this very life, as the Buddha taught. Then I will have ended my suffering without ending my life (i.e., suicide). And if, as it turns out, rebirth is real... bonus points for having ended the cycle of rebirth, too.

The whole suicide argument is disingenuous at best. If I didn't care about liberation in this very life, I'd be a jain or something.

So... the suicide argument doesn't work.


- First you say it's not the only viable option.


Of course I say that. The path the Buddha taught is a viable option, so even if suicide is one viable option, it would not be the only viable option.

- Then you say that you can get enlightened in this very life, saving the need for suicide.


Actually, the Buddha says that you can get enlightened in this very life.

- Finally you say that the suicide argument doesn't work, but no logical reasoning provided for such a conclusion.


The above is the logical reasoning. Even if suicide is a viable option to ending suffering, the Buddha's path to liberation is still a viable option. One that doesn't require suicide. The ridiculous notion that, without rebirth, suicide is the obvious way out of suffering is just... well, ridiculous. Maybe I don't want to commit suicide, but I still want to be free from suffering.

Can anybody actually argue for the necessity of belief in rebirth without resorting to "because that's (my understanding of) what the Buddha taught"?


Well, yes they can - Because thus far you've done nothing to refute either argument, except to say in one way or another that you're keen to get enlightened in this very life.


Great, let's hear it. I've seen no legitimate arguments that belief in rebirth is a necessity.

Furthermore my friend, since you're quite willing to play, then bend the logical fallacy game, here's a hell of an appeal to authority:

Find me a meditation master who has denied literal rebirth. Find me just one who has said: "You know this re-birth business, these 4 stages of sainthood, the multiple suttas which list annihilationism/materialism/agnosticism as a wrong view and the continuity of kamma-vipaka? Well they're wrong, they got it wrong, yep sorry the Buddha actually taught these things as skillful means/he didn't teach these things at all, they were supplanted into the suttas/These things were taught to people who didn't understand the higher truth."


Why? Still wouldn't prove anything either way. An eternity of meditation won't tell anyone what the Buddha himself actually taught, unless you were there listening to the Buddha himself.

As an aside, it's a bit belittling to categorise people in terms of whether they "understand the higher truth" or not in such a context.

Rebirth denial is a modern curiosity, and an understandable product of disillusioned Western agnostics coming across a doctrine that's a little less pushy than all this 'god' business. But open your heart to the possibility of rebirth, a working hypothesis if you must, it's a lot easier than wrangling with all these implausible and inconsistent theories.


Nothing inconsistent here. Nothing with which to wrangle. In fact, I'm not even denying rebirth. I'm merely denying that belief in rebirth is necessary for liberation via the Buddha's teaching. I see the entire question of rebirth as a non-issue. I don't particularly care whether anyone believes in rebirth. I'm not tied to any particular view regarding the truthfulness of rebirth.

Hope you're having a good day Sean, if not may you be well and good, if so may it continue


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:20 pm

seanpdx wrote:Nothing inconsistent here. Nothing with which to wrangle. In fact, I'm not even denying rebirth. I'm merely denying that belief in rebirth is necessary for liberation via the Buddha's teaching. I see the entire question of rebirth as a non-issue. I don't particularly care whether anyone believes in rebirth. I'm not tied to any particular view regarding the truthfulness of rebirth.


Ok, step by step. First, do you believe the four noble truths are a necessary understanding for liberation?

-M
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:20 pm

meindzai wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Nothing inconsistent here. Nothing with which to wrangle. In fact, I'm not even denying rebirth. I'm merely denying that belief in rebirth is necessary for liberation via the Buddha's teaching. I see the entire question of rebirth as a non-issue. I don't particularly care whether anyone believes in rebirth. I'm not tied to any particular view regarding the truthfulness of rebirth.


Ok, step by step. First, do you believe the four noble truths are a necessary understanding for liberation?

-M


Sorry, you still haven't addressed my points in this post: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=540#p47718
Specifically, this part:

1) Prove that there is such a thing as "un-ripened kamma".
2) Prove that good fortune must be a result of kamma, and that bad fortune must be a result of kamma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:33 pm

No, I'm starting over to simplify things.

Four noble truths - yay or nay?

-M
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby seanpdx » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:40 pm

meindzai wrote:No, I'm starting over to simplify things.

Four noble truths - yay or nay?

-M


Sorry, I entered this thread to follow a specific line of thought that you yourself brought up. If you no longer wish to explore that particular line, so be it, but general, unfocused debates on rebirth tend to bore me.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:42 pm

Join the club. They bore we who accept the Buddhas teachings in their entirety too.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:55 pm

seanpdx wrote:
meindzai wrote:No, I'm starting over to simplify things.

Four noble truths - yay or nay?

-M


Sorry, I entered this thread to follow a specific line of thought that you yourself brought up. If you no longer wish to explore that particular line, so be it, but general, unfocused debates on rebirth tend to bore me.


I'm trying to get you to focus, but you're refusing to answer a basic question. If you're not interested in the Dhamma, I'm not sure why you'd be interested in discussing rebirth.

Do you believe the four noble truths are important for liberation?

-M
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:58 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:Join the club. They bore we who accept the Buddhas teachings in their entirety too.


Amen brother!

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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