notself wrote:I will just back out of this thread if no one wants to discuss what is reborn in his own words but only wants to refer to the teachings and commentaries.
What a shame since we are in the Dhammic free-for-all forum.
Kamma and Kammavipaka is "reborn". We could also say that an impersonal and delusional cause-effect process of "I, me mine," making goes on until all delusion and tendencies completely cease, at which point the process would eventually cease.
IMHO it is crucial to believe in rebirth. If we all end up freed from one life,then there would be neither much desire nor motivation to really work hard at eradication unwholesome tendencies. Furthermore to hold the idea that "there is no rebirth" IS wrong view.
"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view.
Sandaka a wise man reflects, this good teacher upholds this view and declares. There are no results for gifts-re--and
there is nothing after death. If the words of these teachers are true, I should not do anything. I should not live the holy life. After death my teacher and I become equal in our recluseship. I who do not even believe it. We both get anihilated and destroyed after death. Unnecessarily these good teachers went naked and wore a knot on the head, did austerities yoked to standing and pulling out hairs of the head and beard. As for me, I lived surrounded by wife and children, enjoyed wearing Kashmire clothes, bearing flowers and scents, and earning gold and silver. I become equal with these good teachers after death. Knowing what and seeing what should I lead the holy life under these teachers. He knowing this is not a holy life turns away from it. Sandaka, this is the first holy life the Blessed One who knows and sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared should not be lived, which the wise man if possible does not live, and even if he lives is not convinced that it is merit.
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Samsara is a dangerous place. Until one is a stream-entry (saddhanusarin or dhammanusarin) there is no guarantee that one won't regress or fall into lower worlds from which is extraordinary hard to get out (MN129). Even if one does lots of wholesome activities, at the time of death if one recollects a bad deed, one can be still reborn in hell. Destination of rebirth is like stick thrown into air. Sure good kamma can make good rebirth more likely, but sometimes other factors come into play and can alter the course (SN15.9).
Even if one is reborn in brahmalokas, one can still fall into hell (AN4.123).
Some may think that "oh, I am a good person. With good kamma, I'll be reborn in good circumstances. I'll never hurt anyone". But there can be many tough situations in life. What if one walks in on one's partner cheating? In the heat of the moment one may do a very unwholesome deed. What if someone were to attack you determined to either kill you (or your loved ones) or be killed himself? What if one due to good kamma is reborn as a ruler of a strong nation and *has* to send troops to war (perhaps as a defence, not an attack) and sign execution orders for criminals on death row? That is terrible kamma. What about a kamma of those pilots who dropped nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They thought that they were doing a good thing, maybe they prevented much greater casualties... However you spin it, they did a mass murder - a terrible kamma. Thus there is no certainty to "always doing good", until one is on the path of stream entry and temptations may arise. According to SN35.235 (8) if one dies thinking about gratification in any of the 6 sense faculties, one can be reborn in hell or animal realm. Only the holy path can close the door to lower rebirth.
This would not make sense if the death would mean the end of all suffering.
"As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were set on fire, A bhikkhu should wander mindfully In order to abandon identity view" - SN1.21(1)
Bhikkhus, one might look on equanimously at one's blazing clothes or head, paying no attention to them, but so long as one has not yet
made the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [attain Sotapatti], in order to make the breakthrough one should arouse
extraordinary desire, make an extraodinary effort, stir up zeal and enthusiasm, be unremitting, and exercise mindfulness and clear
comprehension" -SN 56.34 (4) Clothes
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the eye faculty to be lacerated by a red-hot iron pin which is burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in a form cognizable by the eye. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features, and if one should die on that occasion, it is possible that one will go to one of two destinations: hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the ear faculty to be lacerated by a sharp iron stake which is burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in a sound cognizable by the ear. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features … hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the nose faculty to be lacerated by a sharp nail cutter which is burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in an odour cognizable by the nose. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features … hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the tongue faculty to be lacerated by a sharp razor which is burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in a taste cognizable by the tongue. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features … hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the body faculty to be lacerated by a sharp spear which is burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in a tactile object cognizable by the body. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification inthe sign or in the features, and if one should die on that occasion, it is possible that one will go to one of two destinations: hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
It would be better, bhikkhus, to sleep—for sleep, I say, is barren for the living, fruitless for the living than to think such thoughts as would induce one who has come under their control to bring about a schism in the Sangha. Having seen this danger, I speak thus.
-SN 35.235 (8) The Exposition on Burning
Please read MN129 and MN130 suttas.
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``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it.
With metta,
Alex
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