Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

tiltbillings wrote:

Brizzy wrote: Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.

He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?

Virgo wrote:

Brizzy wrote:

Manapa wrote:No, there are some suttas which refer to this, Satipattana practice can and does lead onto the jhanas but sati and jhana are two seperat things [distinguished apart, but related], if you go onto access to insight and look at the wings to awakening there are some suttas pointed out in the end section look for Jhana in the index.

I suppose synonymous is not exact. I think that what I am trying to ask is, if people consider that the culmination or aim of satipatthana is jhana - perfected sati.

The culmination of insight is the mind taking nibbana as object. This occurs as a moment of jhana with the deathless as its object. This is far, far, far, far, far, different from mundane jhana though, which leads to rebirth. Jhana with nibbana as object cuts off the head of the foe. Mundane jhana (the eight jhanas) just makes the foe hide for a bit (which is still good but not nearly as good as supramundane jhana).

Mundane jhana is a state of absorption. It is kusala kamma of a very high degree. For those with accumulations to master the jhanas, it most certainly can be used as a basis for insight. For the Sukkhavipassaka person, mundane jhana is not necessary, since insight can result from developed panna alone.

See for example:

In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
Kevin

Brizzy wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

Brizzy wrote: Purity of sati (satipārisuddhiṃ) happens in 4th Jhana.

He said ignoring other comments made about this issue which raises the question: And your point is?

Hi

Please read the thread again.

I did not write the above.

I just happen to be in agreement with it.

I think you are ignoring the comments made by the suttas.

My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.

Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.

Virgo wrote:

Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.

I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... c=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin

Brizzy wrote: My point is that sati has jhana as its culmination.

"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development."

Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

Kenshou wrote:

Virgo wrote:

Brizzy wrote: And right concentration is........jhana.

I would read this if I were you (the whole page): http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... c=93&st=20

P.S. About what you said about the Susima Sutta, what I quoted is from the ancient Commentarial tradition, what bhikkhu Thanissaro writes is just his own modern day interpretation.

Have a nice day,

Kevin

Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.

Virgo wrote:

Kenshou wrote:Well, the commentarial writings are also -just- someone's interpretation, are they not? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with that, though.

There is a big difference.

tiltbillings wrote:

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.

AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

Manapa wrote:

AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem wrote:"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

Brizzy wrote:In the context of this discussion, which is sati, are you saying sati = insight?

tiltbillings wrote:

Alex123 wrote: Samadhi uses satipatthana and it uses 4 right efforts. These qualities work together.

True, except I would say that it the other way around satipatthana uses samadhi, given that it is certainly possible to develop highly refined samadhi without developing insight.