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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:01 pm
by Sobeh
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Bhikkhu Bodhi
wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:23 pm
by Cittasanto
who is arguing Jhana isn't needed for full enlightenment?
BTW insight practices have been credited by some scholors as being able to take us up to the first two levels not just the first.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:34 pm
by Kenshou
It seems logical to think that if a practice could get someone to one stage of awakening, that it could lead to the others eventually.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:46 pm
by tiltbillings
Sobeh wrote:tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Bhikkhu Bodhi
wrote this piece which does just such a thing in that it shows how the jhanas are essential to arahantship (and here we mean the first form jhana, or the four formless jhanas). Dry insight can get you sotapanna, but once-returner, non-returner, and arahant have attained the jhanas.
And that makes my point. Dry insight can lead to ariya, once there jhana would hardly be a problem, but what actually constitutes jhana becomes an interesting question.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:50 am
by Brizzy
tiltbillings wrote:Brizzy wrote:
However Sammasamamadhi is jhana in the Buddha/sutta sense and not the Buddhaghosa variety.
Maybe, but then that certainly does not shoot down the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type practice. And I have yet to see a convincing, irrefutable demolishing of the notion of "dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa.
Why would one bother with notion of
""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?
When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:25 pm
by Sobeh
tiltbillings wrote:Ecxept the problem is that have shown they are different.
That's a very unclear sentence; re-state?
[tb: thanks for catching that; corrected version below.]
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:31 pm
by tiltbillings
Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?
When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:19 am
by Brizzy
tiltbillings wrote:Brizzy wrote:
Why would one bother with notion of ""dry insight" as spelled by Buddhaghosa"?
When you can have the notion of the eightfold path (inclusive of jhana) as spelled out by the Buddha.
Ecxept the problem is that you have not shown they are different. You have not shown much of anything other than you do not like (or
seem to understand) the vipassana traditions.
Hi
What I "
understand" is this.......
Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path
Jhana - full eightfold path
Of course they are different!
supramundane jhana? Not even mentioned in the suttas.
I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:33 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path
Jhana - full eightfold path
Of course they are different!
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)
Metta,
Retro.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:35 am
by Brizzy
jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana. My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:40 am
by Brizzy
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Dry insight - no jhana - sevenfold path
Jhana - full eightfold path
Of course they are different!
Do you see jhana and samadhi then as synonymous? (since as I'm sure you know, it's Right Samadhi, not Right Jhana)
Metta,
Retro.
Yes.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:37 pm
by tiltbillings
Brizzy wrote:
I have endeavoured to show they are different, if you don't agree - that's fine, but please be mindful that your last statement was of a personal nature and not dealing with the arguments.
You have not shown anything, making no real argument to even respond to. You certainly do not understand the vipassana traditions. I am waiting for a real argument to respond to here.
You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:28 pm
by Sobeh
tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:10 pm
by tiltbillings
Sobeh wrote:tiltbillings wrote:You have yet to show that Buddhaghosa differs from the suttas.
The burden of proof is on the claim that Buddhaghosa is similar, which I think is the contention here. You'll wait forever for an argument to respond to, because others are waiting for a reason to take the word of a Commentary over the Suttas.
Goodness. Commentaries are important, but are hardly the final word on things, but that does not mean that they also cannot get things right.
The point is, if you are going to claim that Buddhaghosa is not reflecting the sutta teachings accurately, simply claiming that is so is meaningless. The Brizzy subtext here is the vipassana traditions have gotten it wrong, but he really has not shown that he understands what the these traditions teach, which means he cannot show they have gotten it wrong vis a vis the suttas.
Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?
Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:18 am
by meindzai
Brizzy wrote:jcsuperstar wrote:if jhana and sati were synonymous wouldn't we just have a 7fold path?
The seventh factor of the path is sati not satipatthana.
The seventh factor is samma sati (right mindfulness) which is
defined as satipatthana - the four foundations of mindfulness:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
-DN 22
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My question revolves around the culmination of sati i.e. satipatthana.
My understanding of the purity/perfection of sati in Jhana is that sati has already been, from the outset, present as a factor in some degree, developed outside of meditation, but it is obscured by other jhanic factors. It becomes more prevailent as other jhanic factors drop away. It's the same with other factors (like equanimity) which are present to some degree, but not considered "jhanic factors" until unobscured.
The meditator in third jhana is also said to be mindful and discerning, which points to another pair of frequently conjoined mental functions. Mindfulness (sati), in this context, means the remembrance of the meditation object, the constant bearing of the object in mind without allowing it to float away. Discernment (sampajañña) is an aspect of wisdom or understanding which scrutinizes the object and grasps its nature free from delusion. Though these two factors were already present even in the first two jhanas, they are first mentioned only in connection with the third since it is here that their efficacy becomes manifest. The two are needed particularly to avoid a return to rapture. Just as a suckling calf, removed from its mother and left unguarded, again approaches the mother, so the happiness of jhana tends to veer towards rapture, its natural partner, if unguarded by mindfulness and discernment (Dhs. A.219). To prevent this and the consequent loss of the third jhana is the task of mindfulness and discernment.
The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation - Bhante Gunaratana
Of course for this to work, mindfulness needs to be established in the context of the eightfold path. The first seven factors of the eighfold path serve as "supports and requisite conditions" for right concentration. See
The Great Forty
-M