Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Kenshou »

although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages
As I understand it, it is implied that these developments of concentration are, or at least in order to be true samma-samadhi, are complemented by the rest of the eightfold path as that quote from MN 117 states. Also notice that the first item of that list, jhana, which is often associated with right samadhi, doesn't have the epithet of "right" attached to it either. But I don't think that this means that they aren't talking about right samadhi here.

But yeah, it doesn't explicitly state that they are right concentration, either. But I think when you take all of the passages together, the picture is fairly clear. Any singleness of mind, weather focused on the development of jhana, or in contemplation of the aggregates or of feelings, or all of them together, when supported by the rest of the path, becomes right concentration.

-Brizzy: So, what exactly is your point?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Kenshou wrote:
although the parts you mention #3&4 are the development of samadhi not sammasamadhi itself from my reading of the passages
As I understand it, it is implied that these developments of concentration are, or at least in order to be true samma-samadhi, are complemented by the rest of the eightfold path as that quote from MN 117 states. Also notice that the first item of that list, jhana, which is often associated with right samadhi, doesn't have the epithet of "right" attached to it either. But I don't think that this means that they aren't talking about right samadhi here.

But yeah, it doesn't explicitly state that they are right concentration, either. But I think when you take all of the passages together, the picture is fairly clear. Any singleness of mind, weather focused on the development of jhana, or in contemplation of the aggregates or of feelings, or all of them together, when supported by the rest of the path, becomes right concentration.
I agree here, all I was aiming at pointing out was the passages don't say explicitly....
I had looked for a quote a day or so ago looking for where it gives an alternative definition of sammasamadhi, and until I saw the A2I doc couldn't hadn#t found one, but didn't spend much time looking tbh.

ps I asked the same and still waiting.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:having skimmed through that document and reading your quote it certainly gives me pause ...

sampajanna is mindfulness??
"Critical to Right Mindfulness' purpose (Nyanaponika)

In a publicly available correspondence between Bhikkhu Bodhi and B. Alan Wallace, Bodhi has described Ven. Nyanaponika Thera's views on "right mindfulness" and sampajañña in the following fashion:

... I should add that Ven. Nyanaponika himself did not regard “bare attention” as capturing the complete significance of satipaṭṭhāna, but as representing only one phase, the initial phase, in the meditative development of right mindfulness. He held that in the proper practice of right mindfulness, sati has to be integrated with sampajañña, clear comprehension, and it is only when these two work together that right mindfulness can fulfill its intended purpose.[12] "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampaja%C3%B1%C3%B1a

I would say that in the Buddha's teaching sampajanna would be a coexistent of sati.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... reness.pdf

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

did I say sampajanna was not needed?

the reliability of that document for me is suspect due to several quirks noticed in a quick scim through.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:did I say sampajanna was not needed?

No.

the reliability of that document for me is suspect due to several quirks noticed in a quick scim through.
Why?

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

same reason I wouldn't find a math textbook reliable when it states 1+1=2.5 as a correct equation.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:same reason I wouldn't find a math textbook reliable when it states 1+1=2.5 as a correct equation.
I'm sorry, I still don't know specifically what you are objecting to.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

I find that document unreliable it is as simple as that.

it is misleading due to the translation it uses of words, and its dealing with words as the same which are different this is blatently obvious just with the two quotes from it you and myself provided, inaccurate = unreliable

1 + 1 = 2.5 = wrong
1 + 1 = 2 = correct


what are you trying to prove?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:I find that document unreliable it is as simple as that.

it is misleading due to the translation it uses of words, and its dealing with words as the same which are different this is blatently obvious just with the two quotes from it you and myself provided, inaccurate = unreliable

1 + 1 = 2.5 = wrong
1 + 1 = 2 = correct


what are you trying to prove?
Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.
In relation this this thread you started, as with your other threads, you do seem be agenda driven.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.
In relation this this thread you started, as with your other threads, you do seem be agenda driven.
WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.
It is not so much asking a question, but it is how you structured the questions you have asked - and much of your responses - and this response rather makes it clear - agenda. Having an agenda, however, does not negate the questions ask, so ask away. And thanks for feeling the metta.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
WOW! I can't ask a question, without "having an agenda" I think the metta that I feel coming from vipassana practitioner's is the only thing that keeps me going.
It is not so much asking a question, but it is how you structured the questions you have asked - and much of your responses - and this response rather makes it clear - agenda. Having an agenda, however, does not negate the questions ask, so ask away. And thanks for feeling the metta.
No worries.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Brizzy wrote:
Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

:smile:
you have been asked this before on this thread, by myself and others, you definitely appear to be trying to prove something or working with an agenda.

I gave an example when I said I found that document unreliable, nothing more needed to be added, I am not going to pick through a document to slam it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Brizzy

Re: Is jhana synonymous for satipatthana?

Post by Brizzy »

Manapa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Nothing.

You just mentioned that you found the document unreliable and I was asking why? I am really not trying to "prove" anything.

:smile:
you have been asked this before on this thread, by myself and others, you definitely appear to be trying to prove something or working with an agenda.

I gave an example when I said I found that document unreliable, nothing more needed to be added, I am not going to pick through a document to slam it.
You queried "sampajanna is mindfulness?"


Mindfulness is an english word that is used for "sati"

Now mindfulness these days, has been reduced to bare attention, the document seems to be assigning sampajanna for mindfulness or constant attention. You actually mentioned there were several inaccuracies but mentioned only one. I have no "agenda" and if you dont want to read the document - cool - but you can hardly make informed observations if you dont.

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