the great ignorance debate

[PeterB]

Ok Nathan ....I Peter am forced to use conventions of temporality..

[Pannapetar]

How is a negative eradicated ?

With a positive!?

Cheers, Thomas

[PeterB]

Greetings Peter,

I'm trying to reconcile these two perspectives...

(Avijja is) A given in that as long as we are not enlightened our perception/cognitions will always have their origin in Avijja. It is an a priori. The first link in paticcasamuppada.

Avijja is something that we actively do. Avijja is what arises until and to the degree that Insight has not arisen.

When you say enlightened, are you talking about one who is a sekha or an asekha?

What about the degree to which insight has arisen? How does that factor into dependent origination?

(Sorry if any of these questions have in fact been answered above)

Metta,
Retro.

I guess Paul that i was thinking more along the lines of one who is sekha, now that you ask. For me these debates are a way of articulating my own conclusions at the moment, but they are a work in progress...
Perhaps Insight could be described as the "gap" that arises between the processes of perception and the objects of perception.
I was tempted to answer in terms of Cittas but that might not help..

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Peter,

I guess Paul that i was thinking more along the lines of one who is sekha, now that you ask. For me these debates are a way of articulating my own conclusions at the moment, but they are a work in progress...

Understood... it's the same for myself. Discussions such as these with other dedicated practitioners are a blessing, and I'm appreciative of you all.

Metta,
Retro.

[PeterB]

Its mutual Paul..

[nathan]

Thanks everyone for taking an interest in the thread. Very interesting so far, only thirty-five more pages to go.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In relation to the question I was posing about avijja and its cessation in the context of dependent origination, I came across the following from Nanavira Thera.

http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=62

23. Sankhārapaccayā viññānam, as we now see, can be taken to mean that any specific series of sankhāra-sankhatadhamma pairs (one or more) of which the first contains viññāna is dependent upon the very fact that there are sankhārā at all. Avijjāpaccayā sankhārā will then mean that the very fact that there are sankhārā at all is dependent upon avijjā; and with cessation of avijjā—avijjānirodhā—all sankhārā whatsoever will cease—sankhāranirodho. This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya Mahāvagga:

Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā
Tesam hetum Tathāgato āha
Tesañ ca yo nirodho
Evamvādī mahāsamano.

Of things originating with conditions,
The Tathāgata has told the condition,
And what their cessation is.
The Great Recluse speaks thus.

Here, Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā are all things whatsoever that depend upon hetū ('conditions'—synonymous with paccayā). Since each of these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any paticcasamuppāda formulation), it shares the same fate as its hetu—it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that are hetuppabhavā) is no different from the hetu of their individual hetū taken as a whole. When there are hetū at all there are hetuppabhavā dhammā, when there are no hetū there are no hetuppabhavā dhammā; and hetū, being nothing else than sankhārā, have avijjā as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), therefore, is avijjā. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppāda (as noted in §7), and avijjā is therefore non-seeing of paticcasamuppāda. Avijjāpaccayā sankhārā will thus mean 'paticcasamuppāda depends upon non-seeing of paticcasamuppāda'. Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppāda is cessation of avijjā, and when paticcasamuppāda is seen it loses its condition ('non-seeing of paticcasamuppāda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all hetuppabhavā dhammā. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of avijjā.

Dhammas are dependent upon avijja.

Metta,
Retro.