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the great ignorance debate - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

the great ignorance debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 11, 2010 2:14 am

Greetings Nathan,

Excellent find, re: the Gunaratana quote. That makes a lot of sense and validates the unnerving discontent I had with regards to the treatment of moha as being synonymous to avijja.

You mention dependent origination, and whilst I'm normally the first to dive into a comparative discussion on the three-life/temporal/objective model versus the structural/subjective model of dependent origination, I might hold back just for a moment to pose the following question that seem more pertinent to the topic at hand...

A putthujana obviously possesses a degree of avijja (complete ignorance?) whereas at the other end of the spectrum an arahant has none. A sekha (non-arahant noble one) however, would presumably be somewhere in between. How does dependent origination apply to the sekha? Is there avijja sometimes, is there avijja in different degrees, or is it an all or nothing case of vijja and avijja, period? If it's something other than "always yes" or "always no", what implications does this have on our understanding of dependent origination, and the concept of avijja in general?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby nathan » Tue May 11, 2010 3:57 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 11, 2010 4:11 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby appicchato » Tue May 11, 2010 5:08 am


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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 11, 2010 5:32 am

I think I have to agree with Ven. Appicchato on this one. The question is a good example of a so-called no-brainer. No offense. It's just so glaringly obvious. The more interesting question is whether we as a species are on a threshold of development where knowledge makes a difference, or perhaps phrased more clearly: do we have the capacity to free ourselves out of the mire of ignorance? The very occurrence of a Buddha would suggest this. I doubt therefore that Buddhists can deny this without contradicting the dhamma, but what about non-Buddhists? There are a good number of people who believe we are doomed one or another way.

Cheers, Thomas

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 11, 2010 5:42 am

Greetings Pannapetar ,

I don't see how it's a 'no brainer'... at least not until you define vijja and avijja.

How would you answer this question - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4317&start=20#p65013

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 11, 2010 6:14 am


PeterB
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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 6:33 am

You havent understood Avijja. Avijja isnt read in others. Its a given, just as dukkha antta and anicca are givens. What we cant assess in others and only in part in ourselves is Moha.

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 11, 2010 6:39 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 6:49 am

A given in that as long as we are not enlightened our perception/cognitions will always have their origin in Avijja. It is an a priori. The first link in paticcasamuppada.
Which I think answers the second bit too.

:anjali:
Last edited by PeterB on Tue May 11, 2010 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby cooran » Tue May 11, 2010 6:57 am

Hello Peter,

Yes.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby nathan » Tue May 11, 2010 6:57 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

nathan
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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby nathan » Tue May 11, 2010 7:13 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 7:16 am

Even if there is an overlap in our terminology it might be useful to distinguish between Avijja ( literally lack of seeing, a-vid ) and Moha (delusion ).
It may be useful to contemplate Avijja as the first universal link in D.O. and Moha as its corollory. Which is Avijja as experienced in an individual stream of Citta.
In reality of course there is no qualitative difference..ignorance gives rise to a false ego sense which gives rise to Dukkha.

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 11, 2010 7:20 am


PeterB
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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 7:27 am


PeterB
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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 7:29 am


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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby PeterB » Tue May 11, 2010 7:45 am

To answer my own question...which in the end is what Buddhism can do for us and no more..Avijja is not simply an absence of concepts, or a presence of wrong concepts..although it includes those. Avijja is something that we actively do. Avijja is what arises until and to the degree that Insight has not arisen.

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby nathan » Tue May 11, 2010 8:11 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: the great ignorance debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 11, 2010 8:40 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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