What use is heavenly rebirth?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: What use is heavenly rebirth?

Postby suriyopama » Thu May 27, 2010 4:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:If we take the Four Noble Truths as knowledges to be penetrated, we have...

1. Know suffering
2. Know the cause of suffering
3. Know the cessation of suffering
4. Know the path leading to the cessation of suffering

Regardless of how you conceive 'heavenly', #1 & #2, #4 are hard to do because pleasures offset the need, desire and ability to see the causality involved in dukkha. Because of that lack of understanding, #3 becomes harder to achieve too. Heaven is a fools paradise.


Good point Retro. I will remind it to my wife. When she is worn-down because she had a busy day, sometimes she says "I wish we could be angels in heaven, so we could dedicate all our time to practice dhamma".
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Re: What use is heavenly rebirth?

Postby dhammapal » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:48 am

Lazy_eye wrote:Rebirth in the heavenly realm seems to be a fairly common goal for laypeople, and perhaps even some monastics. It's one of the "six remembrances", for instance. But I'm a little unclear on why anyone would want to strive for this. Conditions in the heavenly realms are said to be very pleasant, but they are not optimal for practicing the dhamma. So wouldn't it make a lot more sense to aim for a human rebirth? (Granted, we don't necessarily have control of this...but I mean in terms of intentions).

For an ordinary layperson, why not seek to produce the kammic conditions that would enable further development of the path in a future (human) life? If you get to heaven, sooner or later you'll use up the merit and fall back into the lower realms, which means you'll have to wait eons until that blind turtle finds its head caught in the yoke again.

What exactly can be accomplished in heaven? Is there something I've missed here?

LE

Devas have superior technology and longer life-span so some who met the Buddha and took videos of him teaching would still be around.

With metta / dhammapal.
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Re: What use is heavenly rebirth?

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:54 am

dhammapal wrote:Devas have superior technology and longer life-span so some who met the Buddha and took videos of him teaching would still be around.


Where on earth did you get this from?
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: What use is heavenly rebirth?

Postby Goedert » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:42 pm

Friends,

If the time pass differently in heavenly realms, lets analyse:

- The Buddha Gautama died 2.500-600 years ago, in the humans years.
- In Tusita Heaven, in the realm of delight, the beings live 4.000 celestial years and 1 day of this celestials years = 400 humans years.

So one of that devas saw the Buddha and the Dhamma directly from him, like in past week in the celestial time.
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Re: What use is heavenly rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:34 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Rebirth in the heavenly realm seems to be a fairly common goal for laypeople, and perhaps even some monastics. It's one of the "six remembrances", for instance. But I'm a little unclear on why anyone would want to strive for this. Conditions in the heavenly realms are said to be very pleasant, but they are not optimal for practicing the dhamma. So wouldn't it make a lot more sense to aim for a human rebirth? (Granted, we don't necessarily have control of this...but I mean in terms of intentions).

For an ordinary layperson, why not seek to produce the kammic conditions that would enable further development of the path in a future (human) life? If you get to heaven, sooner or later you'll use up the merit and fall back into the lower realms, which means you'll have to wait eons until that blind turtle finds its head caught in the yoke again.

What exactly can be accomplished in heaven? Is there something I've missed here?

LE




MN 68
"So, Anuruddha, it is not for the purpose of scheming to deceive people or for the purpose of flattering people or for the purpose of gain, honour, and renown, or with the thought " let people know me to be thus", that when a disciple has died, the Tathagata declares his reappearance thus "so-and-so has reappeared in such-and-such a place" Rather, it is because there are faithful clansmen inspired and gladdened by what is lofty, who when they hear that, direct their minds to such a state, and that leads to their welfare and happiness for a long time"


lofty
Adjective
[loftier, loftiest]
1. of majestic or imposing height
2. morally admirable: lofty ideals
3. unpleasantly superior: a lofty contempt


Such aspiration helps lead people to be moral, which helps them to progress to the Buddhas own teachings, the 4 noble truths
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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