Temporary Arahantship?

[clw_uk]

This relates to something brought up in another thread. The a Sutta there is a story about a bhikkhu Godhika who kept reaching arahantship and then falling away from it so that on the 7th time that this happened he killed himself.

Isnt arahantship suppost to be permanent though, so how could someone reach it and fall away again six times? Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

[bodom]

This relates to something brought up in another thread. The a Sutta there is a story about a bhikkhu Godhika who kept reaching arahantship and then falling away from it so that on the 7th time that this happened he killed himself.

Isnt arahantship suppost to be permanent though, so how could someone reach it and fall away again six times? Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

It was said that he achieved "temporary liberation of mind", or one or other of the higher superconscious states, but failed to gain final liberation because he was beset by illness.

The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, A Translation of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya, trans. Bikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications, Boston, p. 420, note 309.

[Peter]

You are correct that arahantship is taught to be irreversible. I found this translation of the relevant passage:

"Venerable Godhika while abiding diligent to dispel touched the release of mind in concentration. Then venerable Godhika fell away from that release of mind in concentration."

I don't know what "release of mind in concentration" means but I have not seen that phrase as a description of arahantship. Perhaps it refers to one of the jhana states?

[clw_uk]

Thank you both, as i do not believe arahantship is temporary it must mean jhana state or something like it.

[mikenz66]

Perhaps there are misleading translations:
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... a-Samyutta

3. Venerable Godhika while abiding diligent to dispel touched the release of mind in concentration. Then venerable Godhika fell away from that release of mind in concentration.
...

I presume that "release of mind in concentration" is Jhana, a temporary release from the hindrances, not complete liberation. Similarly to the contemplation of mind states in the Satipatthana Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html

III. The Contemplation of Consciousness
...
Herein, monks, a monk knows ... the freed state of consciousness, as the freed state;[19] and the unfreed state of consciousness as the unfreed state.
...
[19.] Temporarily freed from the defilements either through the methodical practice of insight (vipassana) freeing from single evil states by force of their opposites, or through the meditative absorptions (jhana).

See also: http://members.tripod.com/~suttanta/khu ... ha043.html

Metta
Mike

[clw_uk]

Thanks mikenz66, that last link was very helpful

There is something else i have found in relation to arahants.

[quote=] There is a ‘fully enlightened being’ called an ‘arahant’, who is perfect - NOT

There is no such thing as an arahant who is completely different from ordinary people because he/she is perfect. The question of whether someone can be perfect is fruitless and unhelpful. Every person can move in the enlightenment direction, and away from the endarkenment direction. (It is probably better not to speak of ‘arahants’.)[/quote]

http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main ... idNOTTeach


Arent arahants suppost to be perfect however?

[jcsuperstar]

that site doesnt seem very authoritve...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Craig,

Arahants are perfect to the extent that they can no longer have mindstates that are based in greed, aversion or delusion. To think they can move in the "endarkenment direction" is therefore simply incorrect.

Metta,
Retro.

[robertk]

Godhika attained arahatship after he cut his throat in the short time before death. He was not even a sotapanna at the time of using the knife according to the Theravada texts.

[Heavenstorm]

Thank you both, as i do not believe arahantship is temporary it must mean jhana state or something like it.

According to Kathavatthu, Points of Controversy, arahantship must be permanent,