Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 4:51 am

Since it is at the heart of the issue about what is and is not a noble person it seemed useful to start a thread to examine the teachings on these subjects and related issues. I'll try to find some pali definitions, sutta quotations and commentaries old and new on this subject. Anyone with related info or opinions is of course welcome to add more.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
nathan
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby mikenz66 » Wed May 26, 2010 5:19 am

Hi Nathan,

Do these help?

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... %C4%81sava
Āsava: lit: fermentations, taints, corruptions, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.:
1: The mental fermentation of sense-desire kāmāsava, Ex: 'All is pleasant'
2: The mental fermentation of desiring existence bhavāsava, Ex: 'Being is good'
3: The mental fermentation of wrong views ditthāsava, Ex: 'My opinion is best'
4: The mental fermentation of ignorance avijjāsava. Ex: 'Suffering exists not'
A list of three, omitting the fermentation of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. In Vibh. Khuddakavatthu Vibh. both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of floods ogha and yokes yoga.

Through the path of Stream-Entry, the fermentation of views is destroyed;
Through the path of Non-Returning, the fermentation of sense-desire;
Through the path of Arahatship, the fermentations of existence and ignorance.
M. 2 shows how to overcome the fermentations, namely, through insight, sense-control, avoidance, wise use of the necessities of life. For a commentarial exposition, see Atthasālini Tr. I, p. 63f: II, pp. 475ff.

khīnāsava = one whose fermentations are eliminated, or one who is fermentation-free, is a name for the Arahat or Noble One. The state of Arahatship is frequently called āsavakkhaya the destruction of the fermentations. Suttas concluding with the attainment of Arahatship by the listeners, often end with the words: During this utterance, the minds of the Bhikkhus were freed from the mental fermentations through absence of clinging anupādāya āsavehi cittāni vimuccimsū'ti.


http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #samyojana
Samyojana: 'mental chains'. There are 10 mental chains tying beings to the wheel of existence, namely; 1: personality-or-ego-belief sakkāya-ditthi, 2: sceptical doubt vicikicchā, 3: clinging to mere rules and ritual sīlabbata-parāmāsa, see: upādāna 4 sense-craving kāma-rāga.v., 5 ill-will vyāpāda 6 craving for fine-material existence rūpa-rāga 7 craving for immaterial existence arūpa-rāga 8 conceit māna, 9 restlessness uddhacca,, 10 ignorance avijjā. The first five of these are called 'lower mental chains' orambhāgiya-samyojana as they tie to the sense-world. The latter 5 are called 'higher mental chains' uddhambhāgiya-samyojana as they tie to the higher worlds, i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world A. IX, 67, 68; X. 13; D. 33, etc..

He who is free from 1-3 is a Sotāpanna, or Stream-winner, i.e. one who has entered the stream to Nibbāna, as it were. He who, besides these 3 mental chains, has overcome 4 and 5 in their grosser form, is called a Sakadāgāmi, a 'Once-returner' to this sense-world. He who is fully freed from 1-5 is an Anāgāmī, or 'Non-returner' to the sense-world. He who is freed from all the 10 mental chains is called an Arahat, i.e. a perfectly Noble One.

For more details, see: ariya-puggala.

The 10 mental chains as enumerated in the Abhidhamma, e.g. Vibh. XVII, are: sense-craving, ill-will, conceit, wrong views, sceptical doubt, clinging to mere rules and ritual, craving for existence, envy, stinginess, ignorance.


http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala
Ariya-puggala: or simply Ariya: Noble Ones, noble persons:
The 8, Ariya = Noble Ones are those who have realized one of the 8 stages of Nobility, i.e. the 4 supra-mundane paths magga and the 4 supra-mundane fruitions phala of these paths. There are thus these 4 pairs:

A1. The one realizing the path of Stream-winning sotāpatti-magga.
A2. The one realizing the fruition of Stream-winning sotāpatti-phala.

A3. The one realizing the path of Once-return sakadāgāmi-magga.
A4. The one realizing the fruition of Once-return sakadāgāmi-phala.

A5. The one realizing the path of Non-return anāgāmi-magga.
A6. The one realizing the fruition of Non-return anāgāmi-phala.

A7. The one realizing the path of Nobility arahatta-magga.
A8. The one realizing the fruition of Nobility arahatta-phala.

Summed up, there are 4 noble individuals ariya-puggala:
1: The Stream-winner Sotāpanna,
2: The Once-Returner Sakadāgāmi,
3: The Non-Returner Anāgāmī,
4: The Worthy One Arahat.

In A. VIII,10 and A. IX, 16 the gotrabhū is listed as the 9th noble individual.

According to the Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path, or simply path magga, is a designation of the moment of entering into one of these 4 stages of Nobility with Nibbāna being the object, produced by intuitional insight vipassanā into the impermanence, misery and impersonality of existence, flashing forth and forever transforming one's life and nature. By fruition phala is meant those moments of consciousness which follow immediately thereafter as the result of the path, and which in certain circumstances may repeat for innumerable times during the life-time.

I: Through the path of Stream-winning sotāpatti-magga one becomes free whereas in realizing the fruition, one is freed from the first 3 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to existence in the sense-sphere, to wit:
1: Personality-belief sakkāya-ditthi, see. ditthi,
2: Skeptical doubt vicikicchā,
3: Clinging upādāna to mere rules and rituals sīlabbata-parāmāsa.
One has maximally 7 rebirth rounds before Awakening and cannot be reborn
as animal, ghost, demon or hell-being.

II: Through the path of Once-return sakadāgāmi-magga one becomes nearly freed from the 4th and 5th mental chains, to wit:
4: Sense-desire kāma-cchanda = kāma-rāga rāga, and
5: Ill-will vyāpāda = dosa see: mūla.

III: Through the path of Non-return anāgāmi-magga one becomes fully freed from the above-mentioned 5 lower mental chains.

IV: Through the path of Nobility arahatta-magga one furthermore becomes free from the 5 higher mental chains, to wit:
6: Craving for fine material existence rūpa-rāga,
7: Craving for formless existence. arūpa-rāga,
8: Conceit and pride māna,
9: Restlessness uddhacca, and
10: Ignorance avijjā.

The stereotype Sutta text runs as follows:

Stream-enterer:
I: After the disappearance of the three mental chains, the Bhikkhu has won the stream to Nibbāna and is no more subject to rebirth in the lower worlds, is firmly established, bound for full enlightenment.

Once-returner:
II: After the disappearance of the three mental chains and the reduction of greed, hatred and confusion, he will return only once more; and having once more returned to this world, he will put an end to suffering.

Non-returner:
III: After the disappearance of the five mental chains he appears in a higher world, and there he reaches Nibbāna without ever returning from that world to the sense-sphere worlds.

Arahat:
IV: Through the ceasing of all mental fermentations āsava-kkhaya he reaches already in this very life the deliverance of mind, the deliverance through understanding, which is free from fermentations, and which he himself has understood and directly realized.

For the various classes of Stream-winners and Non-Returners, see: Sotāpanna, Anāgāmī.

B: The sevenfold grouping of the Noble Disciples is as follows:

1: The faith-devotee saddhānusārī,
2: The faith-liberated one saddhā-vimutta,
3: The body-witness kāya-sakkhī,
4: The both-ways-liberated one ubhato-bhāga-vimutta,
5: The Dhamma-devotee dhammānusārī,
6: The vision-attainer ditthippatta,
7: The one liberated by understanding paññā-vimutta.
This group of seven Noble Disciples is thus explained in Vis.M XXI, 73:

1-2: He who is filled with determination adhimokkha and, in considering the constructions as impermanent anicca, gains the ability of faith, he, at the moment of the path to Stream-winning A1 is called a faith-devotee saddhānusārī; 2: at the seven higher stages A2-A8 he is called a faith-liberated one saddhā-vimutta.

3: He who is filled with tranquillity and, in considering the constructions as miserable dukkha, gains the ability of concentration, he in every respect is considered as a body-witness kāya-sakkhī.

4: He who after reaching the absorptions of the formless sphere has attained the highest fruition of Nobility, he is a both-ways-liberated one ubhato-bhāga-vimutta.

5: He who is filled with understanding and, in considering the constructions as no-self anattā, gains the ability of understanding, he is at the moment of Stream-winning A1 a Dhamma-devotee dhammānusārī,

6: At the later stages A2-A7 a vision-attainer ditthippatta,

7: At the highest stage A8 a understanding-liberated one paññā-vimutta.

Further details about the body-witness => kāya-sakkhī, the both-ways-liberated one => ubhato-bhāga-vimutta and the understanding-liberated one => paññā-vimutta Cf. also M. 70; A. IX, 44; see: XII, 70; Pts.M. II, p. 33, PTS.

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10131
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 5:50 am

Five impossibilities, to wit, for an arahant intentionally to take life, or to take what is not given, so as to amount to theft, or to commit sexual offense, or to lie deliberately, or to spend stored-up treasure in worldly enjoyments, as in the days before he left the world. MN - I.523

. . . the arhant monk . . . cannot transgress nine standards: a monk in whom the cankers are destroyed, cannot deliberately take life of any living thing; cannot, with intention steal, take that which is not given; cannot engage in carnal intercourse; cannot intentionally tell a lie; cannot enjoy pleasures from savings, as of yore when a householder; . . . cannot go astray through desire, cannot go astray through hate; cannot go astray through delusion; cannot go astray through fear. AN IV.370.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19209
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 6:13 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Nathan,

Do these help?
Mike
Yes thanks guys, I had found very similar references but you saved me from posting them. I'll keep looking for more to add.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
nathan
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Ben » Wed May 26, 2010 7:15 am

Hi Nathan and all

Just to mix things up a bit, here's something from Bhikkhu Bodhi's
A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma. Ch. 7: Compendium of Categories p265 and 269.

§3 Taints

How? First, in the compendium of the unwholesome, there are four taints: (1) the taint of sensual desire, (2) the taint of (attachment to) existence, (3) the taint of wrong views, (4) the taint of ignorance.

Guide to §3
The word asava means literally that which flows out. In Pali the word denotes both pus oozing from an abscess and intoxicants which have been fermented for a long time. The defilements classified as taints are called asavas because they are similar to oozing pus and to fermented intoxicants. The Commentaries state that the asavas are so called because they flow right up to the topmost plane of existence or because they flow up to change-of-lineage (gotrabha – see IX, §34).
Of the four taints, the taint of sensual desire and the taint of (attachment to) existence are both modes of the cetasika greed (lobha), directed in the one case to sense pleasure, in the other to continued existence. The taint of wrong view is identified as the cetasika wrong view (ditthi) and the taint of ignorance as the cetasika delusion (moha).

§10 Fetters (Suttanta Method)

Ten fetters, according to the Suttanta method: the fetter of (1) sensual lust, (2) attachment to fine-material existence, (3) attachment to immaterial existence, (4) aversion, (5) conceit, (6) wrong views, (7) adherence to rites and ceremonies, (8) doubt, (9) restlessness, (10) ignorance.

§11 Fetters (Abhidhamma Method)

Another ten fetters, according to the Abhidhamma method: the fetters of (1) sensual lust, (2) attachment to existence, (3) aversion, (4) conceit, (5) wrong views, (6) adherence to rites and ceremonies, (7) doubt, (8) envy, (9) avarice, (10) ignorance.

Guide to §§10-11

The fetters are unwholesome mental factors which bind beings to the round of existence. The first set of ten fetters is mentioned both in the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the second set only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In the first set (1)-(3) are aspects of greed and (6)-(7) aspects of wrong view; the rest are distinct cetasikas. In the second set (1)-(2) are aspects of greed, (5)-(6) aspects of wrong view, and the rest distinct cetasikas.


kind regrds

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15965
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Wed May 26, 2010 7:45 am

Hi Nathan and all,

good thread !

But - what does it all mean? I mean what is the interpretation ?

§10 Fetters (Suttanta Method)

Ten fetters, according to the Suttanta method: the fetter of (1) sensual lust, (2) attachment to fine-material existence, (3) attachment to immaterial existence, (4) aversion, (5) conceit, (6) wrong views, (7) adherence to rites and ceremonies, (8) doubt, (9) restlessness, (10) ignorance.


Just picking two, (2) attachment to fine-material existence, (3) attachment to immaterial existence, what do they mean?

I assume they have to be present during the jhanas - how does one know that one is attached to fine material or immaterial existance? What does "attachment" mean in this context. And why is it compared to oozing pus or fermentation?
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 26, 2010 8:09 am

Greetings,

A worthwhile book for anyone wishing to investigate asavas (taints)..

Mind Overcoming its Cankers by Buddharakkhita Thera
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=13961

It contains Buddharakkhita's translation of the Sabbasava Sutta, its ancient commentary, and provides a modern commentary too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14624
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Ben » Wed May 26, 2010 8:11 am

Freawaru wrote:Hi Nathan and all,

Just picking two, (2) attachment to fine-material existence, (3) attachment to immaterial existence, what do they mean?


Basically, rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas

Freawaru wrote:I assume they have to be present during the jhanas - how does one know that one is attached to fine material or immaterial existance?

If having experienced it, one craves for its continuance, its reoccurance or aversion to any state that is not it.

Freawaru wrote: What does "attachment" mean in this context. And why is it compared to oozing pus or fermentation?


oozing pus and fermentation are descriptors that accompany and form the definition of asava (taint). Attachment to fine material or immaterial existance, as the quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes above suggest, because they flow right up to the topmost plane of existence or because they flow up to change-of-lineage. They accompany the mindstream right up to the attainment of ariya.
I hope that clarifies for you somewhat.
kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15965
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Wed May 26, 2010 4:29 pm

Thank you, Ben,

Ben wrote:
Freawaru wrote:I assume they have to be present during the jhanas - how does one know that one is attached to fine material or immaterial existance?

If having experienced it, one craves for its continuance, its reoccurance or aversion to any state that is not it.


Yes, but what does "craving" mean? Some seem to interpret it as "wanting" something, but I do not think so. The Buddha "directed his mind" and this means he wanted his mind to enter, say, a jhana. There is intention. So "wanting" as in, say, one succeeded in balancing a bike once and wants to do that again, is not, IMO, the meaning of craving in this context.

Jhanas can, as far as I know, be experienced in several different ways. For example, a practitioner enters the jhana of infinite space and - as all other perceptions are gone (such as the other senses, a physical or mind made body) - there is a unity experienced, a unity between the "I" and space. Afterwards the practitioner will recall and describe this experience as "I was infinite space". But with an increase of mindfulness a repetition of the experience might be different - he might recall it as "I was infinite space", too, but during the absorption itself he might be able to stay aware that this is an absorption, that he is not, in fact, infinite space (though he currently has the impression), and thus become able to observe the state as a state, analyse it and what changes when he enters it or leaves it. And then there is the possibility of the mind entering the jhana of infinite space, experiencing it and recalling it afterwards as "there was infinite space" or "that mind was infinite space" due to a simultaneous detached Witness perspective.

Does "craving" enter the equation in all three kinds of experience? Or is there less clinging and craving when sampajanna is present? And what about the Witness?

Freawaru wrote: What does "attachment" mean in this context. And why is it compared to oozing pus or fermentation?


oozing pus and fermentation are descriptors that accompany and form the definition of asava (taint). Attachment to fine material or immaterial existance, as the quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes above suggest, because they flow right up to the topmost plane of existence or because they flow up to change-of-lineage. They accompany the mindstream right up to the attainment of ariya.
I hope that clarifies for you somewhat.


Not really until I can identify them inside myself :tongue:

But thank you anyway :smile:
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Kenshou » Wed May 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Yes, but what does "craving" mean? Some seem to interpret it as "wanting" something, but I do not think so. The Buddha "directed his mind" and this means he wanted his mind to enter, say, a jhana. There is intention. So "wanting" as in, say, one succeeded in balancing a bike once and wants to do that again, is not, IMO, the meaning of craving in this context.


Aren't you splitting hairs a little bit? There's a difference between intending to do something and intention born of clinging and craving, otherwise an arahant would be essentially braindead.

there is a unity experienced, a unity between the "I" and space. Afterwards the practitioner will recall and describe this experience as "I was infinite space".


I'm not so sure, nothing suggests to me that identifying oneself with the quality of whatever jhana has anything to do with it. But that's another discussion...
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Thu May 27, 2010 2:10 pm

Hi Kenshou,

Kenshou wrote:
Yes, but what does "craving" mean? Some seem to interpret it as "wanting" something, but I do not think so. The Buddha "directed his mind" and this means he wanted his mind to enter, say, a jhana. There is intention. So "wanting" as in, say, one succeeded in balancing a bike once and wants to do that again, is not, IMO, the meaning of craving in this context.


Aren't you splitting hairs a little bit? There's a difference between intending to do something and intention born of clinging and craving, otherwise an arahant would be essentially braindead.


Could you please give two examples of "intending to do something" and "intention born of clinging and craving"? In what way do these two intentions differ?

there is a unity experienced, a unity between the "I" and space. Afterwards the practitioner will recall and describe this experience as "I was infinite space".


I'm not so sure, nothing suggests to me that identifying oneself with the quality of whatever jhana has anything to do with it. But that's another discussion...


I think that identifying oneself with anything is at the heart of the discussion.

In the Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka the phrase

But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


is repeated several times, including referring to the pleasant feeling of jhana. To me it seems as if this is the crucial point: there was pleasant feeling but no identification with it any more as had been there when he entered the jhanas before. And the change was that there was no craving for that pleasant feeing and thus no attachment to the state.

But I cannot discern it :cry:
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Kenshou » Thu May 27, 2010 8:11 pm

Could you please give two examples of "intending to do something" and "intention born of clinging and craving"? In what way do these two intentions differ?


Say someone has a craving for a piece of cake. They experience the stress of hunger and craving for cake. Upon that is born the intention to go get a piece of cake.

Now, suppose we have a nice monk, an arahant even, back in the old days, who's gotten his almsfood for the day. He comes across a child who is very hungry, and he considers "Ah, he is hungry, why don't I share my food with him"? And so out of compassion, he does. This sort of thing I think, is an action that comes about not due to craving.

This is how I think of it.

And the change was that there was no craving for that pleasant feeing and thus no attachment to the state.


I can agree on that, however I think there's a difference between craving the pleasantness of jhana and identifying with it as one's "I", which is what I got the sense that you were saying. But maybe I'm the one splitting hairs now. :tongue:
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Mon May 31, 2010 7:02 pm

Hi Kenshou,

seems to me as if we might not agreeing but certainly we are converging. :smile:

Kenshou wrote:
Could you please give two examples of "intending to do something" and "intention born of clinging and craving"? In what way do these two intentions differ?


Say someone has a craving for a piece of cake. They experience the stress of hunger and craving for cake. Upon that is born the intention to go get a piece of cake.

Now, suppose we have a nice monk, an arahant even, back in the old days, who's gotten his almsfood for the day. He comes across a child who is very hungry, and he considers "Ah, he is hungry, why don't I share my food with him"? And so out of compassion, he does. This sort of thing I think, is an action that comes about not due to craving.


What enables the monk to do so? I don't mean what makes him decide for it, that would be compassion as you said, but what enables him to go through with it after such an idea?
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Kenshou » Mon May 31, 2010 7:43 pm

Well I would firstly ask you, what is it that might prevent him?
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:03 am

Kenshou wrote:Well I would firstly ask you, what is it that might prevent him?


The fear of the pain of hunger invading and consuming his mind.

Can't happen to an arahant, though.
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby gavesako » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:08 am

This is a good simile:

"Just as when an ocean-going ship, rigged with masts & stays, after six months on the water, is left on shore for the winter: Its stays, weathered by the heat & wind, moistened by the clouds of the rainy season, easily wither & rot away. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, his fetters easily wither & rot away."

ttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/ ... .than.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:50 am

Dear Bhante,

gavesako wrote:This is a good simile:

"Just as when an ocean-going ship, rigged with masts & stays, after six months on the water, is left on shore for the winter: Its stays, weathered by the heat & wind, moistened by the clouds of the rainy season, easily wither & rot away. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, his fetters easily wither & rot away."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Thank you for the simile. I very much dislike it - not the simile itself of course but what it means. Just like this one taken from the same sutta:

"Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle wore down this much, or yesterday it wore down that much, or the day before yesterday it wore down this much,' still he knows it is worn through when it is worn through. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, he does not know, 'Today my effluents wore down this much, or yesterday they wore down that much, or the day before yesterday they wore down this much,' still he knows they are worn through when they are worn through.


Why can't we use a kind of "microscope" and see the "handle" wearing through? :cry:

:wink:
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:06 am

Why bother? Besides for curiosity's sake.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Interpretations of the Taints and Fetters

Postby Freawaru » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:32 am

Kenshou wrote:Why bother? Besides for curiosity's sake.


I just like to observe and analyse mind processes.... :popcorn:
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests