Aspects of Dukkha

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Aspects of Dukkha

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:21 am

Sobeh wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
This is simply because you haven't thought it through. Suicide is the act of exchanging this here-and-now knowable world for a here-and-now unknowable one. There is no reason to think of that post-death state as being any better or worse than here and now without recourse to idle speculation.



Buddha wasn't agnostic and neither were His Arahant disciples.


That doesn't change the fact that we have nothing but speculation about the hereafter, which is all the evidence I need to show that suicide is not guaranteed to operate in one way over another. In short, it is simply possible that it will not do what you think it will do.



Well, I believe that the Buddha knew better than me and ultimately one has to choose to believe oneself or the Buddha.


You do seem to wriggle out of the issue of suicide. If all existence is Dukkha, and there is only one life, why not simply hasten the progress through this action?
Kamatanha or Bhavatanha stoping one?

Or why do anything at all if any action will end up the same? (parinibbana after the death of both villains and saints alike).
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:41 am

If all existence is Dukkha, and there is only one life, why not simply hasten the progress through this action?




All existence isnt dukkha, its clinging to the five aggregates that dukkha is there. There can be life without dukkha, i.e. the buddha living for 40 or so years after enlightenment



Or why do anything at all if any action will end up the same? (parinibbana after the death of both villains and saints alike).



These are all speculative views and so are tied up with dukkha. The buddha taught two things, dukhha and its cessation here and now. The rest I would leave up to the philosophers, as he did


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:02 pm

clw_uk wrote:
If all existence is Dukkha, and there is only one life, why not simply hasten the progress through this action?




All existence isnt dukkha, its clinging to the five aggregates that dukkha is there. There can be life without dukkha, i.e. the buddha living for 40 or so years after enlightenment


Dukkha doesn't just involve clinging, that is mental dukkha. There is physical suffering as well.


Three Types of Dukkha:
Dukkha as pain (dukkha-dukkhata) – body or mental pain
Dukkha that is inherent in formation (sankhara-dukkhata) – maintenance of body and things, oppressive nature of continuous upkeep
Dukkha of change (viparinama-dukkhata) – pleasant and happy conditions in life are not permanent
http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/ ... mma-lists/




278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html


ALL is included within Dukkha. It is just that Arahants do not experience mental dukkha, but only physical (which can be quite a bit).

By denying dukkha, one is denying the path to purification...
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:29 pm

Dukkha doesn't just involve clinging, that is mental dukkha. There is physical suffering as well



The Buddhas teaching is for the removal of mental dukkha, or the dukkha that comes from craving and clinging not physical pain


The buddha lived for 40 years after his enlightenment and had realised nibbana and claimed he was free from dukkha but still felt physical pain


thinking that one is to rid oneself of the aggregates is a misunderstanding


This is why the buddha taught that an ignorant person is struck by the arrow of dukkha twice, one in the body etc and once in the mind but the arahant is struck once just in the body but has wisdom so dukkha doesnt arise in the mind


The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

....

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



the Buddha defines what he teaches quite clearly here


"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are dukkha.



the aggregates arent dukkha themselves, clinging to them is dukkha
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:33 pm

Three Types of Dukkha:
Dukkha as pain (dukkha-dukkhata) – body or mental pain
Dukkha that is inherent in formation (sankhara-dukkhata) – maintenance of body and things, oppressive nature of continuous upkeep
Dukkha of change (viparinama-dukkhata) – pleasant and happy conditions in life are not permanent




Which is all dukkha from clinging. Dukkha is caused by clinging to things that are anicca. When there is no clinging there is still anicca but no dukkha
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:01 pm

clw_uk wrote:Which is all dukkha from clinging. Dukkha is caused by clinging to things that are anicca. When there is no clinging there is still anicca but no dukkha


Dukkha is both dukha-vedana (has nothing to do with present clinging, even the Buddha had it) and it is dukkha due to present defilements, such as anger.

BTW, craving/clinging itself (according to Abhidhamma) never feels bad the moment it occurs. Cittas with craving feel either pleasure (sukha) or equinimity. The dislike (patigha) which includes anger (as its intensification) does always feel bad as it occurs. But regardless if one is an arahant or not, kaya dukkha vedana can occur.



The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:48 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Which is all dukkha from clinging. Dukkha is caused by clinging to things that are anicca. When there is no clinging there is still anicca but no dukkha


Dukkha is both dukha-vedana (has nothing to do with present clinging, even the Buddha had it) and it is dukkha due to present defilements, such as anger.

BTW, craving/clinging itself (according to Abhidhamma) never feels bad the moment it occurs. Cittas with craving feel either pleasure (sukha) or equinimity. The dislike (patigha) which includes anger (as its intensification) does always feel bad as it occurs. But regardless if one is an arahant or not, kaya dukkha vedana can occur.



The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html




Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?




“While experiencing that same painful feeling, he harbors no aversion toward it. Since he harbors no aversion
toward painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion toward painful feeling does not lie behind this. While
experiencing painful feeling, he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the instructed noble
disciple knows of an escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. Since he does not seek delight in sensual
pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not lie behind this. He understands as it really is the
origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. Since he understands
these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling does not lie
behind this.

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels
a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, monks, is called a noble disciple who is detached from
birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and despair; who is detached from
suffering, I say.


“This, monks, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and the
uninstructed worldling.”



Free from attachment means free from dukkha here and now, not half now and rest when 5 aggregates fall apart


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Sobeh » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?


No, you are conflating 'pain' and 'dukkha'. The Buddha was free from dukkha. He still experienced pain. It is quite simple.
User avatar
Sobeh
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:57 pm

clw_uk wrote:Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?


He definately was not freed from kaya-dukkha-vedana. Many suttas attest to that. He did have physical dukkha, but not the mental one.


“While experiencing that same painful feeling, he harbors no aversion toward it. ... [snip]

Free from attachment means free from dukkha here and now, not half now and rest when 5 aggregates fall apart


metta


There is a difference between patigha (absent from Anagamis, Arahants and Buddhas) and kaya-dukkha-vedana.


28. ...when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him.
29...Then let me suppress this illness by strength of will, resolve to maintain the life process, and live on."
30. And the Blessed One suppressed the illness by strength of will, resolved to maintain the life process, and lived on. So it came about that the Blessed One's illness was allayed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html



Illness, sickness, bodily pains are aspects of Dukkha


[a] "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

"And what is the stress of not getting what one wants? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So the aspect of dukkha dealing with the physical body, still remained. Even for the Buddha. The difference in that sense between His Dukkha and ours is
a) He experienced only physical dukkha. No patigha like those of us below Anagami level.
b) He isn't going to be reborn to experience more physical dukkha. Ordinary worldlings will be.


Dukkha is far more inclusive than you state. And 99.9999% of it doesn't relate to this short life.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Yundi » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:44 am

Buddha was free from dukkha.

The first noble truth advises, in summary, attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha.

Let me give you an exact metaphor.

When we are sick, we go to the doctor and say: "I have a pain here, a sneeze here, phlem here, fever here, headache here, ...".

The doctor then diagnoses the illness, replying: "you have Mongolian chicken flu".

The Buddha was the same.

Ordinary people cry to the doctor: "I have suffering of birth, suffering of sickness, suffering of death, suffering of pain, suffering of separation,...etc".

The Buddha diagnoses the illness, replying: "Your mind is suffering from attachment" - "please take the medicine of anatta".

:anjali:
Yundi
 

Re: Aspects of Dukkha

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:47 am

Nice summary, Yundi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14629
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby pt1 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:18 am

Yundi wrote:Buddha was free from dukkha.

The first noble truth advises, in summary, attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha.

This is a confusing subject. I think we can safely say that after enlightenment he was free from present craving and clinging, which are related to creating kamma, and thus, dukkha in the future. But, was he free from experiencing results of his previous kamma? I don't think so. And wasn't there a sutta that says that arising of all formations is dukkha (sabbe sankhara dukkha)? I think attention for example is a formation, so is feeling, so is mindfulness, etc, and the Buddha still had all of these arising while alive, so by that line of reasoning, he was still experiencing dukkha. And isn't that the main difference between nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder (parinibbana)? I think the simile from the suttas was that before parinibanna, the fire is out but the embers are still burning, while with parinibbana everything goes cold never to arise again, so truly no more dukkha.

Best wishes
pt1
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:21 am

pt1 wrote:
Yundi wrote:Buddha was free from dukkha.

The first noble truth advises, in summary, attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha.

This is a confusing subject. I think we can safely say that after enlightenment he was free from present craving and clinging, which are related to creating kamma, and thus, dukkha in the future. But, was he free from experiencing results of his previous kamma? I don't think so. And wasn't there a sutta that says that arising of all formations is dukkha (sabbe sankhara dukkha)? I think attention for example is a formation, so is feeling, so is mindfulness, etc, and the Buddha still had all of these arising while alive, so by that line of reasoning, he was still experiencing dukkha. And isn't that the main difference between nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder (parinibbana)? I think the simile from the suttas was that before parinibanna, the fire is out but the embers are still burning, while with parinibbana everything goes cold never to arise again, so truly no more dukkha.

Best wishes

I think that was well spoken, Pt.

Kevin
Virgo
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:32 am

Sobeh wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?


No, you are conflating 'pain' and 'dukkha'. The Buddha was free from dukkha. He still experienced pain. It is quite simple.




Thats actually Alex position not mine, I was trying to argue the point you just made



metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Aspects of Dukkha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:34 am

Dukkha is far more inclusive than you state. And 99.9999% of it doesn't relate to this short life.



I think this is why we are diverging in understanding, you take Buddhas teachings to mean rebirth after death and I dont, hence the difference



metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Aspects of Dukkha

Postby PeterB » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:39 am

The " Hindu" position is that the Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu. many Buddhists over the millenia have rejected that view while at the same time attributing the Buddha with all the qualities of a Hindu God.
His own view was far more down to earth..when asked if he was a man or a God he replied " I am awake ".
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], chownah, Google [Bot], Mawkish1983, piotr and 12 guests