Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Sobeh wrote:

Alex123 wrote:

Sobeh wrote:
This is simply because you haven't thought it through. Suicide is the act of exchanging this here-and-now knowable world for a here-and-now unknowable one. There is no reason to think of that post-death state as being any better or worse than here and now without recourse to idle speculation.

Buddha wasn't agnostic and neither were His Arahant disciples.

That doesn't change the fact that we have nothing but speculation about the hereafter, which is all the evidence I need to show that suicide is not guaranteed to operate in one way over another. In short, it is simply possible that it will not do what you think it will do.

If all existence is Dukkha, and there is only one life, why not simply hasten the progress through this action?

Or why do anything at all if any action will end up the same? (parinibbana after the death of both villains and saints alike).

clw_uk wrote:

If all existence is Dukkha, and there is only one life, why not simply hasten the progress through this action?

All existence isnt dukkha, its clinging to the five aggregates that dukkha is there. There can be life without dukkha, i.e. the buddha living for 40 or so years after enlightenment

Three Types of Dukkha:
Dukkha as pain (dukkha-dukkhata) – body or mental pain
Dukkha that is inherent in formation (sankhara-dukkhata) – maintenance of body and things, oppressive nature of continuous upkeep
Dukkha of change (viparinama-dukkhata) – pleasant and happy conditions in life are not permanent
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278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
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Dukkha doesn't just involve clinging, that is mental dukkha. There is physical suffering as well

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

....

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are dukkha.

Three Types of Dukkha:
Dukkha as pain (dukkha-dukkhata) – body or mental pain
Dukkha that is inherent in formation (sankhara-dukkhata) – maintenance of body and things, oppressive nature of continuous upkeep
Dukkha of change (viparinama-dukkhata) – pleasant and happy conditions in life are not permanent

clw_uk wrote: Which is all dukkha from clinging. Dukkha is caused by clinging to things that are anicca. When there is no clinging there is still anicca but no dukkha

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

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Alex123 wrote:

clw_uk wrote: Which is all dukkha from clinging. Dukkha is caused by clinging to things that are anicca. When there is no clinging there is still anicca but no dukkha

Dukkha is both dukha-vedana (has nothing to do with present clinging, even the Buddha had it) and it is dukkha due to present defilements, such as anger.

BTW, craving/clinging itself (according to Abhidhamma) never feels bad the moment it occurs. Cittas with craving feel either pleasure (sukha) or equinimity. The dislike (patigha) which includes anger (as its intensification) does always feel bad as it occurs. But regardless if one is an arahant or not, kaya dukkha vedana can occur.

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

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“While experiencing that same painful feeling, he harbors no aversion toward it. Since he harbors no aversion
toward painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion toward painful feeling does not lie behind this. While
experiencing painful feeling, he does not seek delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the instructed noble
disciple knows of an escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. Since he does not seek delight in sensual
pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not lie behind this. He understands as it really is the
origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. Since he understands
these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling does not lie
behind this.

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached. If he feels
a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. This, monks, is called a noble disciple who is detached from
birth, aging, and death; who is detached from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and despair; who is detached from
suffering, I say.

“This, monks, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the instructed noble disciple and the
uninstructed worldling.”

clw_uk wrote:Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?

clw_uk wrote: Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?

“While experiencing that same painful feeling, he harbors no aversion toward it. ... [snip]

Free from attachment means free from dukkha here and now, not half now and rest when 5 aggregates fall apart


metta

28. ...when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him.
29...Then let me suppress this illness by strength of will, resolve to maintain the life process, and live on."
30. And the Blessed One suppressed the illness by strength of will, resolved to maintain the life process, and lived on. So it came about that the Blessed One's illness was allayed.
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[a] "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

"And what is the stress of not getting what one wants? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants.
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Yundi wrote:Buddha was free from dukkha.

The first noble truth advises, in summary, attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha.

pt1 wrote:

Yundi wrote:Buddha was free from dukkha.

The first noble truth advises, in summary, attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha.

This is a confusing subject. I think we can safely say that after enlightenment he was free from present craving and clinging, which are related to creating kamma, and thus, dukkha in the future. But, was he free from experiencing results of his previous kamma? I don't think so. And wasn't there a sutta that says that arising of all formations is dukkha (sabbe sankhara dukkha)? I think attention for example is a formation, so is feeling, so is mindfulness, etc, and the Buddha still had all of these arising while alive, so by that line of reasoning, he was still experiencing dukkha. And isn't that the main difference between nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder (parinibbana)? I think the simile from the suttas was that before parinibanna, the fire is out but the embers are still burning, while with parinibbana everything goes cold never to arise again, so truly no more dukkha.

Best wishes

Sobeh wrote:

clw_uk wrote:Would you then say that Buddha was not free from dukkha after his enlightenment?

No, you are conflating 'pain' and 'dukkha'. The Buddha was free from dukkha. He still experienced pain. It is quite simple.

Dukkha is far more inclusive than you state. And 99.9999% of it doesn't relate to this short life.