Crime in front of a monk

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Crime in front of a monk

Postby zazang » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:30 am

Hi

Although unlikely , What is a monk supposed to do in front of a grave crime like rape happening in front of him/her ?
Should the monk not physically stop it thinking that anyway the person is getting this because of their karma ?

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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:47 am

you should rethink kamma. try reading this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

and the monk can fight for self defense, i assume he could help the victim as well.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:18 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:you should rethink kamma. try reading this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

and the monk can fight for self defense, i assume he could help the victim as well.


If there's no self (anatta), what is there to defend?
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:24 pm

Mukunda wrote:If there's no self (anatta), what is there to defend?


Sounds like nihilism to me... which is a wrong view.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby bodom » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:38 pm

Mukunda wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:you should rethink kamma. try reading this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

and the monk can fight for self defense, i assume he could help the victim as well.


If there's no self (anatta), what is there to defend?


Yes lets all lay down and die because there is no one really there. Maybe I wont go to work anymore and let my family starve because after all we really dont exist. Maybe I will let my 1 year old play outside alone by the pool. I mean why not? She doesn't exist, I dont exist. Whats the point of living anymore?

Basically your saying theres no need to look both ways before crossing the street, no need to wear seatbelts, no need for food, shelter or medicine? The next time your hungry dont eat because there is no one there to be hungry.

The Arahants did not just all curl up and die.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:56 pm

bodom wrote:The Arahants did not just all curl up and die.


No, they didn't. Perhaps you can show me where one defended himself.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:59 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If there's no self (anatta), what is there to defend?


Sounds like nihilism to me... which is a wrong view.


I'm not understanding how this is nihilism. Do you have a canonical reference in support of self defense?
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Kenshou » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:08 pm

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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:10 pm

Mukunda wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If there's no self (anatta), what is there to defend?


Sounds like nihilism to me... which is a wrong view.


I'm not understanding how this is nihilism. Do you have a canonical reference in support of self defense?
:anjali:


You shifted from "If there's no self, what is there to defend?" to "What are the canonical support for self defense?"... these are two (very) different things.

The former is definitely a nihilist viewpoint, and there are references about it from what I recall, but can't remember where (in the suttas) at the moment. The latter is just about self defense.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:19 pm

beeblebrox wrote:The former is definitely a nihilist viewpoint, and there are references about it from what I recall, but can't remember where (in the suttas) at the moment. The latter is just about self defense.


When you do recall, please let me know.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:25 pm

bodom wrote:Yes lets all lay down and die because there is no one really there. Maybe I wont go to work anymore and let my family starve because after all we really dont exist. Maybe I will let my 1 year old play outside alone by the pool. I mean why not? She doesn't exist, I dont exist. Whats the point of living anymore?

Basically your saying theres no need to look both ways before crossing the street, no need to wear seatbelts, no need for food, shelter or medicine? The next time your hungry dont eat because there is no one there to be hungry.


I'm puzzled by your equating observation of logical safety precautions and meeting the requisites for living with self defense.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby bodom » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:34 pm

Mukunda wrote:I'm puzzled by your equating observation of logical safety precautions and meeting the requisites for living with self defense.
:anjali:


Safety precautions for whom? If there is no one there [anatta] as you say, whom are the precautions for? Why bother with safety. Arent you jus protecting your sense of self by taking these precautions. I am puzzled as to how you see self defense and taking safety precautions to protect oneself from danger or death as being so different?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:05 am

Mukunda wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:The former is definitely a nihilist viewpoint, and there are references about it from what I recall, but can't remember where (in the suttas) at the moment. The latter is just about self defense.


When you do recall, please let me know.
:anjali:


I still can't remember exactly. :tongue: But I read this recently... and it seems relevant:

(SN 22:81, Bhikkhu Bodhi edition)

He may not regard form as self, nor self as posessing form, [etc.] ... nor feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness ... nor hold such an [eternalist] view, but holds such a view as this: "I might not be, and it might not be for me; I will not be, [and] it will not be for me.*" That annihilationist view is a formation. That formation--what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced?

---

*Khandasamyutta note #75: Spk's commentary: 'If I were not, it would not be for me': If I were not, neither would there be my belongings. Or else: If in my past there had not been kammic formation, now there would not be for me these five aggregates. 'I will not be, (and) it will not be for me': I will now so strive that there will not be any kammic formation of mine producing the aggregates in the future; when that is absent, there will be for me no future rebirth. (This is a wrong view.)


And this, which might help to make the above clearer:

(SN 22:153)

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, when what exists, by clinging to what, by adhering to what, does such a view as this arises: 'I might not be, and it might not be for me; I will not be, [and] it will not be for me'?"

"When there is form [...] When there is feeling [...] When there is perception, bhikkhus, by clinging to perception, by adhering to perception, such a view as this arise: 'I might not be, and it might not be for me; I will not be, [and] it will not be for me.' When there are volitional formations [...] When there is consciousness [...]"

"What do you think, bhikkhus, are form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, venerable sir."

"But without clinging to what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, could such a view as that arise?"

"No, venerable sir."

"Seeing thus ... He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being.'"
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:50 am

So, is there a self to defend, or not? What exactly is being defended? :shrug:
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Kenshou » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:51 am

Just because the five aggregates are not-self doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:56 am

bodom wrote:Safety precautions for whom? If there is no one there [anatta] as you say, whom are the precautions for? Why bother with safety. Arent you jus protecting your sense of self by taking these precautions. I am puzzled as to how you see self defense and taking safety precautions to protect oneself from danger or death as being so different?


Is it not possible to take precautions to prevent harm to others and promote the well being of all?
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:58 am

Kenshou wrote:Just because the five aggregates are not-self doesn't mean they don't exist.


So are we defending the five aggregrates, or the self?
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby withoutcolour » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:57 am

Mukunda wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Just because the five aggregates are not-self doesn't mean they don't exist.


So are we defending the five aggregrates, or the self?
:anjali:


Perhaps the words "self defense" are misleading then. :)

To the OP:
If the monk prevented the criminal from raping/hurting the victim, he would prevent them from creating bad kamma, and prevent the victim from suffering physically and emotionally (or dying, in the worst case scenario).
Overall, the reduction of suffering of another and prevention of someone from accumulating bad kamma would seem like a good decision on the monk's part. At least in my opinion. Why not? He's certainly working in accordance with the dhamma I say.

To everyone else:
Does it really matter who this hypothetical monk is defending or if there is a self to be defended? That stuff doesn't matter when you're about to be raped/hurt or witness such a thing. It's horrible either way, and there being/not being a self doesn't change that.
(Also, Buddha explicitly expounded on the subject of notself and the wrong views of annihilism and materialism.)
I hope no one here ever experiences such a thing or is put in such a circumstance where they have to stop a crime like that.

-wc
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Mukunda » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:46 am

withoutcolour wrote:
Mukunda wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Just because the five aggregates are not-self doesn't mean they don't exist.

So are we defending the five aggregrates, or the self?
:anjali:

Perhaps the words "self defense" are misleading then. :)
To the OP:
If the monk prevented the criminal from raping/hurting the victim, he would prevent them from creating bad kamma, and prevent the victim from suffering physically and emotionally (or dying, in the worst case scenario).
Overall, the reduction of suffering of another and prevention of someone from accumulating bad kamma would seem like a good decision on the monk's part. At least in my opinion. Why not? He's certainly working in accordance with the dhamma I say.
To everyone else:
Does it really matter who this hypothetical monk is defending or if there is a self to be defended? That stuff doesn't matter when you're about to be raped/hurt or witness such a thing. It's horrible either way, and there being/not being a self doesn't change that.
(Also, Buddha explicitly expounded on the subject of notself and the wrong views of annihilism and materialism.)
I hope no one here ever experiences such a thing or is put in such a circumstance where they have to stop a crime like that.


As I see it, preventing an action, either against one's own person, or another's, is FAR different than defending against such action.

Yes, I think it matters who "this hypothetical monk" is defending. Preventing harm to some one else is being of service to others. "Defending" one's self is self serving. One is conducive to the greater good. The other merely reinforces the delusion of a self.
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Re: Crime in front of a monk

Postby Wind » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:56 am

I'm no monk but if it happen in front of me, I would simply place myself between the assailant and the victim and hope it is enough of a deterrent. If not I will simply try my best to subdue him. If unsuccessful, I hope it bit enough time for the victim to escape.
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