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Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:31 am
by Tex
Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to any Buddhist or non-Buddhist.

Now, what is the Theravadin consensus on the sutras and their origin? Authentic Dhamma? Apocryphal? Perhaps a bit of both, as the Dhamma spread from one land to another and encountered other existant cultural traditions?

I really haven't read many sutras and would be curious to hear other Theravadins' takes...

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:48 am
by tiltbillings
Sutras? Do you mean Mahayana sutras? Or do you mean the Pali suttas?

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:53 am
by Tex
Sutras.

I.e., the authenticity of the suttas is not in question among Theravadins as far as I know, but what do most make of the sutras and their origins?...

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:35 am
by tiltbillings
They are obviously not Buddha-word in the same way the Pali suttas can claim to be. As Richard Gombrich states: "I have the greatest difficulty in accepting that the main edifice [of the Pali suttas] is not the work of one genius." The Mahayana sutras in some occasion exhibit deep insight; in other, many others, they present a marked sectarianism, and there is a very obvious position of opposition that characterize much of the Mahayana's development of its signature doctrines.

Paul Williams' BUDDHIST THOUGHT, chapter 3, give an excellent discussion of the origins of the Mahayana and its texts.

Another book of interest is Text as Father: Paternal Seductions in Early Mahayana Buddhist Literature, by Alan Cole. Here is what someone (WML) who has said on e-sangha:
The author analyzes the Mahayana sutras as works of literature constructed with very purposeful polemical agendas.

The threats of hell in the sutras are a direct consequence of the fact that the religion can only lay claims to authority on the basis of its texts. In other words, since Mahayana has no historical lineage to the Buddha himself, and since the bodhisattva ideal is unverifiable in the present life, the text itself must be made into an idol--an object of blind faith and worship.

The psychological manipulations engineered within these sutras are too numerous to describe here, but the author of the book performs what seems like a pretty comprehensive analysis.

The intense Buddhist fundamentalism in these sutras ("believe this text or you'll go to hell") is so utterly contrary to the spirit of the Kalama sutta; but this makes perfect sense because any tradition lacking historical or pragmatic claims to veracity must have textual claims instead. A textual claim to truth can only be founded upon a fundamentalism of sorts.

One can observe some interesting similarities in technique between the Mahayana sutras and the Book of Mormon. (Both arose lacking claims grounded in historical reality or empirical pragmatism.) As such, both of these attempt to gain confidence from the reader through emotional manipulation. This manipulation especially operates through techniques that cause the reader to feel as though they possess a profound personal relationship or connection with the text itself (hence the book's name "Text as Father"). This sort of polemical technique is epitomized at the end of the Book of Mormon, which says (to paraphrase): "If anyone is unsure about the truth of this book, then let them pray to God and God will tell them the answer." (I have to admit this made me both laugh and cry a little bit inside when I first became aware of it...)

Really, if anyone is interested in understanding the early Mahayana tradition from a polemical and psychological point of view, "Text as Father" is strongly recommended.
The comments about the Kalama Sutta and Mormon seems to be the commentator's own, not from Cole's.

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:19 am
by Ben
Hi Tex
Further to Tilt's first comment regarding Gombrich's comment...
I recommend you read Gombrich's work: 'How Buddhism Began: the conditioned genesis of the early teachings'. Considering your question, I think you would find it quite interesting.
Kind regards

Ben

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:26 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tex,

I've changed the subject of your topic in the interests of clarity.

My answer is that they were required to justify the Mahayana world view.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:32 am
by Cittasanto
I find the Sutras to be Post canon, and some of the Suttas could be called that also, but not by far as many.
some of the Sutras are useful, and others are far from useful

EDIT before final posting

just went to post and retros response came up before I could finally post it, I would agree with his also

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:05 am
by jcsuperstar
didnt i ask this already? or was that on the forum before we switched over?

i have a related question, and maybe if you think it needs to be split off you can split it.

but where do these bodhisattvas come from? the guys we know from the pali suttas are in the sutras, but all of a sudden theres these super dudes. are they in the agamas (anyone know?) and are they in hinduism?

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:13 am
by Cittasanto
jcsuperstar wrote:didnt i ask this already? or was that on the forum before we switched over?

i have a related question, and maybe if you think it needs to be split off you can split it.

but where do these bodhisattvas come from? the guys we know from the pali suttas are in the sutras, but all of a sudden theres these super dudes. are they in the agamas (anyone know?) and are they in hinduism?
Hi JC
The Bodhisattas are in Theravada and is a term used by the buddha to describe himself before enlightenment, I do suppose it is an all inclusive term engulfing all the stages of the path before Nibbana. There is a Boddhisatta Vow in Theravada also but itis to become the next Buddha not the same as the Mahayana Version.
This is from memory and I don't think it is 100% accurate, I know more about the Mahayana version

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am
by jcsuperstar
i wasnt asking about the idea of the bodhisatta or bodhisatva, but about the bodhisattvas in the sutras those specific guys manjushri, avolektishvara, etc

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:18 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings JC,

I think that's closely related enough to the topic to stay in this thread.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:05 am
by Element
tiltbillings wrote:The Mahayana sutras in some occasion exhibit deep insight...
:reading:

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:10 am
by Element
I think to understand the origin of something we can look at the result. The origin will be in the result.

For example, dukkha. It is obvious the origin is ignorance given dukkha is undesirable yet it occurs. People clearly can only hurt and harm themselves from ignorance. One could not hurt and harm themselves from an origin of wisdom because not one being truely seeks to hurt & harm themselves. Even a sucidial person is seeking to escape their pain. If they could end their pain using another method, they would not try suicide.

Similary, the result of Mahayana Buddhism was a slave culture in Tibet, where human beings were supressed, enslaved and controlled by monastic masters in collusion with the ruling elite using a collection of non-Buddhist beliefs, superstitions & rituals.

Therefore, when we examine the end, we will find the origin. When we examine the result, we will find the intention.

With metta

Element

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:43 am
by tiltbillings
Similary, the result of Mahayana Buddhism was a slave culture in Tibet, where human beings were supressed, enslaved and controlled by monastic masters in collusion with the ruling elite using a collection of non-Buddhist beliefs, superstitions & rituals.
Chinese Communists would like to say this sort of thing, but I suspect it is not quite stark as that. But is it any more fair to blame Theravada Buddhism for the ugly and large sex trade and the ongoing illegal child sex slavery in Thailand? And let us not forget that Thailand had been a slave culture in to at least the 19th century.
Therefore, when we examine the end, we will find the origin. When we examine the result, we will find the intention.


So, following your "logic," the intention of the Mahayana was slavery.

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:48 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Element,

That's a pretty stupid comment. What about the Burmese junta? What do they do to those who follow the Theravadin path.

Metta,
Retro. :)