Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Aloka » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Moderator proclamation: No more hell talk.


Thank goodness for that ! For a moment I thought I must have been reborn backwards in time to Christian medieval Europe. :D
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:00 am

tiltbillings wrote:Nor does it mean, from what has been shown here, that those who take the traditional point of view are going to be incapable of insight.

Apparently, from the traditional point of view there's no possibility of liberation anymore in this world anyway. So it's probably better for traditionalists to follow Ven. Buddhaghoṣa's lead and generate merit & aspire for a heavenly rebirth to await Metteyya's awakening.

:anjali:
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:05 am

Ñāṇa wrote:[ follow Ven. Buddhaghoṣa's lead and generate merit & aspire for a heavenly rebirth to await Metteyya's awakening.

:anjali:

um wasnt that part not writen by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:28 am

jcsuperstar wrote:um wasnt that part not writen by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa

Um, why don't you tell me?...
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:04 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Nor does it mean, from what has been shown here, that those who take the traditional point of view are going to be incapable of insight.

Apparently, from the traditional point of view there's no possibility of liberation anymore in this world anyway. So it's probably better for traditionalists to follow Ven. Buddhaghoṣa's lead and generate merit & aspire for a heavenly rebirth to await Metteyya's awakening.

:anjali:
Yes, well, that is the Indian pessimism that each succeeding age, if not generation, is lesser than the one before it, but it would seem that not all Theravadins have bought into that. A fairly wide range, which would include some within the traditional sphere, seem not to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:]Yes, well, that is the Indian pessimism that each succeeding age, if not generation, is lesser than the one before it, but it would seem that not all Theravadins have bought into that. A fairly wide range, which would include some within the traditional sphere, seem not to.

Non-traditional traditionalists....

Anyhoo, the Metteyya reply was my apparently meager attempt to inject a bit of levity into this thread after the fire and brimstone sermons.

:juggling:
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Nor does it mean, from what has been shown here, that those who take the traditional point of view are going to be incapable of insight.

Apparently, from the traditional point of view there's no possibility of liberation anymore in this world anyway. So it's probably better for traditionalists to follow Ven. Buddhaghoṣa's lead and generate merit & aspire for a heavenly rebirth to await Metteyya's awakening.

:anjali:
Yes, well, that is the Indian pessimism that each succeeding age, if not generation, is lesser than the one before it, but it would seem that not all Theravadins have bought into that. A fairly wide range, which would include some within the traditional sphere, seem not to.

From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.

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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:53 pm

Virgo wrote:From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.


What about sakadagami? Doesn't this mean that the person will return to this world in the next life, attain nibbana in this world... which then makes him an arahant, right?
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:10 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Virgo wrote:From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.


What about sakadagami? Doesn't this mean that the person will return to this world in the next life, attain nibbana in this world... which then makes him an arahant, right?

In the traditional texts many realms are outlined. Generally anagamis are born in a certain arupa plane.

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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:19 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Virgo wrote:From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.


What about sakadagami? Doesn't this mean that the person will return to this world in the next life, attain nibbana in this world... which then makes him an arahant, right?



Or Sotopanna (ekabijjin? don't remember the spelling)? There is a class of sotapanna that will be reborn once more in human realm from which s/he will become and arhat. So were there any sotopannas within the last century or two? So by denying the possibility of Arahatship in these times, it also denies stream-entry.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:
Virgo wrote:From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.


What about sakadagami? Doesn't this mean that the person will return to this world in the next life, attain nibbana in this world... which then makes him an arahant, right?



Or Sotopanna (ekabijjin? don't remember the spelling)? There is a class of sotapanna that will be reborn once more in human realm from which s/he will become and arhat. So were there any sotopannas within the last century or two? So by denying the possibility of Arahatship in these times, it also denies stream-entry.

Not at this time. If sotapannas are reborn as human now they can attain the next two stages and then be reborn in the arupa planes for the final attainment.

There are no Arahants in the human realm at this time.

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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:48 pm

Hello Kevin,

Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:

Or Sotopanna (ekabijjin? don't remember the spelling)? There is a class of sotapanna that will be reborn once more in human realm from which s/he will become and arhat. So were there any sotopannas within the last century or two? So by denying the possibility of Arahatship in these times, it also denies stream-entry.

Not at this time. If sotapannas are reborn as human now they can attain the next two stages and then be reborn in the arupa planes for the final attainment.

There are no Arahants in the human realm at this time.

Kevin



How do you know that there are no Arahant in human realm at this time?


With metta,

Alex
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby adeh » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:53 pm

Isn't believing that there are no Arahants in the world now wrong view?
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:03 pm

adeh wrote:Isn't believing that there are no Arahants in the world now wrong view?


And by extension disbelieving in the existence of stream-enterers who aren't going to be reborn in a/rupa loka as well.
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby adeh » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:07 pm

".....no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realized for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world." This is wrong view. [MN. 117:5]
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:11 pm

That's what his texts tell him.
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:31 pm

Virgo wrote:There are no Arahants in the human realm at this time.

Kevin
You don't know iof that is so or not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:34 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:]Yes, well, that is the Indian pessimism that each succeeding age, if not generation, is lesser than the one before it, but it would seem that not all Theravadins have bought into that. A fairly wide range, which would include some within the traditional sphere, seem not to.

Non-traditional traditionalists....
That would sum it it up nicely.

Anyhoo, the Metteyya reply was my apparently meager attempt to inject a bit of levity into this thread after the fire and brimstone sermons.
Sorry; got it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:36 pm

Virgo wrote:From the traditional point of view there are no more Arahants in the human realm right now. But people can still become liberated. There can still be sotapannas, sakadagami, and anagami. One will attain Arahatta in one of the other realms.

Kevin
Then there is another reason to reject the traditional view, but let us see the basis of your claim.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View

Postby IanAnd » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:37 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Nor does it mean, from what has been shown here, that those who take the traditional point of view are going to be incapable of insight.

Apparently, from the traditional point of view there's no possibility of liberation anymore in this world anyway. So it's probably better for traditionalists to follow Ven. Buddhaghoṣa's lead and generate merit & aspire for a heavenly rebirth to await Metteyya's awakening.

This thread has taken some interesting turns. I wonder how many here appreciate all the subtle nuances that have been discussed.

The unquestioned genius of the Pali discourses, now that they have (almost all) finally been more accurately translated into English for the Western world to now see and appreciate, is that anyone can read and follow along with the practice and eventually, with some help and persistence, arrive at the main realization which Gotama was aiming at communicating: that of the cessation of dukkha with regard to the human experience.

All this talk (as well as argument) of attainments can be a distraction, which can negatively influence a person's unique and individual practice. For example, if a person believes that there is no possibility to attain awakening in this lifetime, what kind of negative effect does that kind of internal posturing have on a person. This is a rhetorical question, to be sure. It would seem apparent that it could have a tremendously negative effect on that person's drive and initiative to continue to strive onward toward awakening. This is not to say that many people might indeed continue to strive onward despite such a negative evaluation. It's only to say that for a portion of those who may come to the practice, they may become discouraged about it and not give it a fair shake.

In this instance, such an internal posture would be counter-productive if it led to an attitude that basically proclaimed: "Well, I'll practice for a while and see if this works. Because everyone says to make progress you have to. But since it is virtually impossible to succeed, why should I even continue to try?" It can set up an artificial barrier which can be very difficult for the person to eventually overcome.

From my understanding, having put the suttas to the test and followed along as closely as possible, while making personal observations about their efficacy as well as endeavoring to verify the outcomes from personal experience in terms of attaining liberating insight, the mention of the attainments were meant as a personal guidepost to help the individual practitioner become able to personally gauge his own progress, and not as something that needed to be announced to the world or even acknowledged by the world. They are a guidepost for the solitary practitioner, not a badge of achievement. The individual internal knowledge that is gained should be benefit enough.

And, to my way of thinking at least, people would be wise to maintain that stance. Because in the end, where the rubber meets the road, all practice is inevitably focused upon a local (or individual) effort to achieve a specific goal. It does not matter what other people think regarding whether or not this or that is possible to achieve. What matters most to each one of us is: "Am I understanding this teaching correctly, and am I able to verify from my own experience what the Buddha taught?" If one can accomplish this latter, that is all that one should be concerned about.

We are indeed fortunate to have the discourses preserved for us in this present era so that we may, individually, test them to the limit of our understanding and personal benefit.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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