Is fear of a lower rebirth useful?

[EricJ]

I have a question that may be speculative and unrelated to practice, but this is the Dhammic free-for-all.

I have been thinking about rebirth recently, and specifically, the relation of belief in rebirth to practice. It seems that the answer to my question (as stated in the title of this topic), if you are a Buddhist whose practice is centered on gaining enlightenment, is yes. This is because rebecoming in a lower realm seriously prolongs and compromises the path to enlightenment.

However, there are certainly those who fear rebirth in a hell/petaloka/animal realm based on other characteristics of these stations, such as extreme pain, unfulfilled desire and anguish (a la the hell of Christianity and Islam), as opposed to fear based on the the obstructions a rebirth in these stations places in the path of a "person" seeking bodhi. This seems illogical to me. Since "we" won't be the same "person" experiencing the suffering characteristic of lower rebirth, and since the only frame of reference "we" can have is our range of experience, why fear the pain and anguish of another realm which "we" will never consciously experience.

It seems like this could have an effect on a person who is considering taking refuge and who "accepts" rebirth in another way. If this person is attached to certain behaviors which are traditionally said to lead to a lower rebirth (drug addiction or hunting animals, for instance), but he/she realizes that "he/she" will only be experiencing one life as "him/herself, the fear of lower rebirth wouldn't be there. This person would need other reasons to practice Dhamma aside from a desire to escape the cycle of rebecoming, and specifically, rebecoming in lower realms.

So, what is the place of lower rebirth discussion within Buddhism? Why be afraid of lower rebirth if you are a non-Buddhist who accepts the principle of rebirth or a Buddhist whose practice is centered on gaining a favorable rebirth? What is the utility of discussing lower rebirth when discussing sila (as opposed to discussing the positive benefits of sila in this very life)? Can ignoring the threat of lower rebirth lead to moral "relativism" (for lack of a better designation)?

I apologize for my extensive use of quotation marks and hypothetical scenarios.

[Alex123]

If the fear motivates you to be a better person, then it is good for a time being.

If it just makes you worry more and doesn't increase your wholesome qualities - then it is wrong.

[octathlon]

Since "we" won't be the same "person" experiencing the suffering characteristic of lower rebirth, and since the only frame of reference "we" can have is our range of experience, why fear the pain and anguish of another realm which "we" will never consciously experience.

This is the way I also think of it in my current understanding, except I would add, why hope for a reward of rebirth in a higher realm either. I guess it has to be looked at from the point of view that we all raise each other up and/or drag each other down, so if each person improves their own situation, this helps everyone.

[Aloka]

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Personally I neither accept nor reject rebirth -and this enables me to practice in the present moment and leaves my mind free from pointless speculation .


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[PeterB]

You beat me to it Aloka...

[Anicca]

Personally I neither accept nor reject rebirth -and this enables me to practice in the present moment and leaves my mind free from pointless speculation.

One may accept rebirth and also free the mind from pointless speculation, but great post none the less.

Metta

[octathlon]

Personally I neither accept nor reject rebirth -and this enables me to practice in the present moment and leaves my mind free from pointless speculation.

One may accept rebirth and also free the mind from pointless speculation, but great post none the less.

Metta

I guess if you feel it necessary to point that out on every thread where it may apply, you will be keeping yourself very busy on this website.

[Aloka]

I guess if you feel it necessary to point that out on every thread where it may apply, you will be keeping yourself very busy on this website.

Indeed I would...but I just don't have that amount of spare time at the moment !

[Goofaholix]

The way I see it if you experience a lower rebirth then you obviously have a lesson to learn, so be thankful for that and better get on and learn it. No point being in paradise if still clinging to delusion.

[Aloka]

The way I see it if you experience a lower rebirth then you obviously have a lesson to learn, so be thankful for that and better get on and learn it. No point being in paradise if still clinging to delusion.

Since one's mental state governs whether one experiences heaven or hell, how then does one know if one is actually 'lower' or 'higher' in the rebirth stakes ?


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[jcsuperstar]

it was definitely a good motivation tool for many of the famous monks from way back we now read the books of, especially a lot of the Japanese ones.

[cooran]

Hello all,

Is fear of a lower rebirth useful? Yes.

The Guardians of the World - by Bhikkhu Bodhi
EXCERPT: "The Buddha points to two mental qualities as the underlying safeguards of morality, thus as the protectors of both the individual and society as a whole.

These two qualities are called in Pali hiri and ottappa. Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing.

The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42).

While moral shame and fear of wrongdoing are united in the common task of protecting the mind from moral defilement, they differ in their individual characteristics and modes of operation.

Hiri, the sense of shame, has an internal reference; it is rooted in self-respect and induces us to shrink from wrongdoing out of a feeling of personal honor.

Ottappa, fear of wrongdoing, has an external orientation. It is the voice of conscience that warns us of the dire consequences of moral transgression: blame and punishment by others, the painful kammic results of evil deeds, the impediment to our desire for liberation from suffering. Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: hiri is like one's disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with excrement, ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place where it is red hot."
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodh ... _world.php

with metta
Chris

[PeterB]

Well, whatever turns you on...

[cooran]

Well, whatever turns you on...

Just the Teachings of the Buddha

[Aloka]

Oh, gosh, I didn't know that Bhikkhu Bodhi was the new incarnation of the Buddha !

[cooran]

No, he isn't aloka, and no-one claims that - he is a diligent, devoted, long-serving Bhikkhu and great Scholar, who is deeply respected world-wide.

You can also listen or read Ajahn Jayasaro give a talk on the Buddha's teachings of Hiri-otappa
http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hi ... asaro.html

And view a previous topic on this subject:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1938#p25475

with metta
Chris

[Aloka]

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You can also listen or read Ajahn Jayasaro give a talk on the Buddha's teachings of Hiri-otappa
http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hi ... asaro.html

with metta
Chris

Thank you Chris.

[PeterB]

And once more the problem...do we take literally teachings that come from a world view of another time and place which is in fact every bit as alien and life negative as any treatise that emerged from the Spanish Inquisition if taken literally, or do we unpack it. See the relevance to our own lives. ...in short make it live.
Which begins by teasing out the metaphors. Not in objectified literalism,
Or so I would suggest.
I know what my view is.

[cooran]

No.

We contemplate the teachings given by a Sammasambuddha - and by his arahant disciples ~ Those "who see things as they really are".
And gradually we come to accept those things which we find to be true and wholesome, and, having done this, we have the confidence and faith to put the more difficult things aside temporarily, until our understanding grows.

[clw_uk]

No.

We contemplate the teachings given by a Sammasambuddha - and by his arahant disciples ~ Those "who see things as they really are".
And gradually we come to accept those things which we find to be true and wholesome, and, having done this, we have the confidence and faith to put the more difficult things aside temporarily, until our understanding grows.

Would "putting aside temporaily" mean taking an agnostic view towards literal rebirth in hell, or believing them despite not knowing?


Just interested in your POV


To the original post:

As to if rebirth in hell is a useful metaphor, i believe it depends on the person. However such concepts are tied up with a certain level of self view for such a concept to work


However if you mean useful in relation to the Buddhas teachings,, the 4NT's, then I would argue that they work quite well without such references