principles

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principles

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:03 pm

In order to avoid an "off-topic" warning I'll move this question here:

Mukunda wrote: Maybe you're not familiar enough with the principles of the Theravada to see the comparisons yet. I actually had to understand what was taught in the Theravada prior being able to understand the principles of the Mahyana and Vajrayana.
Buddhafields and a docetic buddha; both these ideas are straight Mahayana. So, what principles in the Theravada helped you understand these ideas?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: principles

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:38 am

Theravada has nothing to do with it. That statement may have been wrongly formulated.

The five aggregates are concived in Mahayana as the dhyani buddhas.

The mening of Buddha field, docetic buddha and mandala Explation

Further reading: Buddha-Figures

Shivaism there is nothing to do with theravada remember it clearly.

Gautama Sakyamuni was a sramanera, Shaivaism is bramahnism, vedantism!
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Re: principles

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:44 am

Goedert wrote:Theravada has nothing to do with it. That statement may have been wrongly formulated.

The five aggregates are concived in Mahayana as the dhyani buddhas.

The mening of Buddha field, docetic buddha and mandala Explation

Further reading: Buddha-Figures

Shivaism there is nothing to do with theravada remember it clearly.

Gautama Sakyamuni was a sramanera, Shaivaism is bramahnism, vedantism!

In other words, Mukunda's claim holds no water.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: principles

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:19 pm

Friend,

You are right. There is a wiki article that we can see an philosophical statement of it, it is clearly that mahayana and vajrayana have a foot in foot in vedic culture. Thats why academic study of them is hard, the scholar has to research in hinduism to undertand many things. Also, in my view, some may do not agree with it but We westerners that have a greek/roman (Socrats,Platos, Aristoteles, etc.) like mind with the system of sientifical proof and analytical study, it is hard to accept as truth, in the first contact, something like buddha fields, celestial boddhisattas, buddha nature, rituals, etc. Theravada has preserved all or almost if not all, the early Buddhist Saramanas thoughts as it was thought by the Lord and it is an analytical system and has scientific principles.

See:

Śramaṇa Philosophy

Indian philosophy is a confluence of Śramaṇic and Vedic streams that co-exist and influence each other. Śramaṇas held a pessimistic world view of samsara as full of suffering (or dukkha). They practiced Ahimsa and rigorous ascetism. They believed in Karma and Moksa and viewed re-birth as undesirable.

Vedics, on the contrary, hold an optimistic world view of the richness of worldly life. They believe in the efficacy of rituals and sacrifices, performed by a privileged group of people, who could improve their life by pleasing certain Gods. The Sramanic ideal of mendicancy and renunciation, that the worldly life is full of suffering and that emancipation requires abandoning desires and withdrawal into a solitary contemplative life, is in stark contrast with the Brahminical ideal of an active and ritually punctuated life. Traditional Vedic belief holds that a man is born with an obligation to study the Vedas, to procreate and rear male offspring and to perform sacrifices. Only in later life may he meditate on the mysteries of life. The idea of devoting one's whole life to mendicancy seems to disparage the whole process of Vedic social life and obligations. Because the Sramanas rejected the Vedas, Brahmins labelled their philosophy as "nastika darsana" (heterodox philosophy).

Beliefs and concepts of Śramaṇa philosophies:-

Denial of creator and omnipotent Gods
Rejection of the Vedas as revealed texts
Affirmation of Karma and rebirth, Samsara and transmigration of Soul (Later these practices were accepted in Brahminic religion Hinduism)
Affirmation of the attainment of moksa through Ahimsa, renunciation and austerities
Denial of the efficacy of sacrifices and rituals for purification.
Rejection of the caste system
Ultimately, the sramana philosophical concepts like ahimsa, karma, re-incarnation, renunciation, samsara and moksa were accepted and incorporated by the brahmans in their beliefs and practices, eg. by abandoning the sacrifice of animals. According to Gavin Flood, concepts like karmas and reincarnation entered mainstream brahaminical thought from the sramana or the renounciant traditions. According to D. R. Bhandarkar, the Ahimsa dharma of the sramanas made an impression on the followers of Brahamanism and their law books and practices.

Following are the two main schools of Sramana Philosophy that have continued since ancient times in India:

Jain Philosophy

(...)

Buddhist philosophy

Buddhist philosophy is a system of beliefs based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, an Indian prince later known as the Buddha. Buddhism is a non-theistic philosophy, one whose tenets are not especially concerned with the existence or nonexistence of a God or gods and which denies the existence of a creator god. The question of God is largely irrelevant in Theravada Buddhism, though most sects of Mahayana Buddhism, notably Tibetan Buddhism and most of East Asian Buddhism (in the Shurangama Mantra and Great Compassion Mantra) do regularly practice with a number of gods (as Dharmapalas and Wrathful Deities, Four Heavenly Kings, and Five Wisdom Kings) drawn from both the Mahayana Sutras and Buddhist Tantras sometimes combined with local indigenous belief systems. The Buddha criticized all concepts of metaphysical being and non-being. A major distinguishing feature of its philosophy is the rejection (anatman) of a permanent, self-existent soul (atman).
Source
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Re: principles

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:42 pm

Another thing.

In ancient greece that oracles and priets had the knowledge of the gods and spirituality, philosophers (principle the Wanderer Socrates) changed it with the firce and all might sientific principles, later in the modern age the same with catolicism.

The saramanas (with the eye of philosophy) may have done the same with vedic priests. Thats why some of vedic knowledge changed, so inevitable the early system of yoga entered in Saramana Buddhism.

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." (Albert Einstein)

I would add to Einstein quote, it is Theravada Buddhism.
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