Buddhism and Psychedelics

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by jcsuperstar »

Viscid wrote:
Tex wrote:

These substances should not be carelessly abused, but you cannot simply dismiss their value.
odd that you talk about labeling things as arbitrary, then just arbitrarily say these things have value. the use of psychedelic substances is as old as civilization itself, in India they used mushrooms, pot and soma, these things would have been well known to a yogi, the Buddha started out as just a yogi. why then didn't he mention them?

I'm no prude, these things were a few times a week indulgence for me when i was younger, and even after finding Buddhism i revisited them to just make sure i hadn't missed something or had just used them wrong. they don't lead into insights.

all conditioned things are not-self, impermanent and dukkha, the state of mind you "achieve" by using a substance is a conditioned state, a fabricated state. thus it is not-self, impermanent and dukkha, thus not a path to liberation. so what would be the point , in a dhammic sense, in fabricating another mind-state that is just dukkha?

if you want to do these things, by all means that's your choice, but if you're really honest with yourself you can see its just more saṅkhāra, no different from the state of mind you could create through alchohol, or day dreaming or whatever.

handa'dāni bhikkhave āmantayāmi vo, vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā ti.
'Disciples, this I declare to you: All conditioned things are subject to disintegration - strive on untiringly for your liberation.' (Mahāparinibbāna Sutta)
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Viscid
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Viscid »

I'd also like to point out this video of the Venerable Rahula of the Bhavana Society both describing his LSD experience and directly comparing that experience to what he experiences during meditation.



He says [@ 4:50] "... I learned that you can reach these kinds of states of consciousness through meditation."

Surely, if deep states of meditation and some aspects of the psychedelic experience are comparable, then LSD could be of use in easily inducing these states not achievable without considerable meditative practice.

That is, if the Ven. Rahula is not either lying, misguided or delusional.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by bodom »

I have listened to many talks from Venerable Rahula on meditation practice and have read his book The Way to Peace and Happiness. Never once does he recommend using LSD and does not do so in the video either. He talks of tripping on acid to the point of almost drowning in the ocean and almost jumping off a balcony ledge, neither of which is very conducive to meditation practice. There is no endorsement for LSD use here.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Viscid
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Viscid »

bodom wrote:I have listened to many talks from Venerable Rahula on meditation practice and have read his book The Way to Peace and Happiness. Never once does he recommend using LSD and does not do so in the video either. He talks of tripping on acid to the point of almost drowning in the ocean and almost jumping off a balcony ledge, neither of which is very conducive to meditation practice. There is no endorsement for LSD use here.

:anjali:
Right, but someone who isn't a monk would probably use this substance, experience a state where some aspects are similar to a deep meditation, have a qualitative change in philosophy after using the substance inspired by this state and look for a system of beliefs which compliment that philosophy. It could be of use bringing people to the dhamma.

Just as tiltbillings said:
tiltbillings wrote:Ah, the 60's.
Any use for monks? Not so much. One of the most convenient things about meditating instead of using drugs is that when you get up from a meditation session, the walls don't breathe.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

[I have come the realization that everyone was right, that Buddhism and Psychedelics are incompatible. Psychedelics are external, impermanent, and illegal]
Last edited by Moth on Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Reductor »

Moth wrote:*Edit* Many are mentioning LSD in this discussion. I would like to clarify that what I am referring to in my original post is naturally occurring plant etheogens used by various cultures (Peyote, Ayahuasca, Psilocybin, etc). In my experience, LSD can lead to very deluded thinking, and can be easily misused.
You know who comes to mind when I read this thread? Dukkhanirodha. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be around that much as of late, but he mentioned on more than one occasion of consuming a natural plant, which proceeded to addle his brain. He now meditates very long hours in a bid to counter the damage it has done to his psyche.

So, laying aside the moral factor or the use in gaining insight, consider the health ramifications.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Viscid »

Moth wrote:*Edit* Many are mentioning LSD in this discussion. I would like to clarify that what I am referring to in my original post is naturally occurring plant etheogens used by various cultures (Peyote, Ayahuasca, Psilocybin, etc). In my experience, LSD can lead to very deluded thinking, and can be easily misused.
Well Psilocybin can lead to the same deluded thinking and misuse as LSD. The experience of being on Mushrooms is very similar to LSD-- you can't say one is better than the other just because one came from a plant and one was manufactured.

Most people abuse these substances. They say "Wooo I want a psychedelic ride!" or maybe an escape and they trip out. When they're tripping, they think lots of neat, crazy, deluded or inspired things with a tremendous amount of conviction. When they're done, there is no one to tell them what thoughts and beliefs are valid or invalid. They have to make this decision for themselves, which I assume would more often than not lead them to believe the wrong view.
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

Viscid wrote:Well Psilocybin can lead to the same deluded thinking and misuse as LSD. The experience of being on Mushrooms is very similar to LSD-- you can't say one is better than the other just because one came from a plant and one was manufactured.

Most people abuse these substances. They say "Wooo I want a psychedelic ride!" or maybe an escape and they trip out. When they're tripping, they think lots of neat, crazy, deluded or inspired things with a tremendous amount of conviction. When they're done, there is no one to tell them what thoughts and beliefs are valid or invalid. They have to make this decision for themselves, which I assume would more often than not lead them to believe the wrong view.
True.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Annapurna »

Viscid wrote:
Tex wrote: They're not heightened states of conscious, they're altered states of consciousness. You might perceive them as higher than normal consciousness at the time because, well, you're high. If you use those substances again, try writing down all of those deep thoughts, really ramble on for a few pages, then read them a few days later when you're sober. I think you'll find a few pages of complete gibberish.
Though this is generally true, there have been instances in which I've used substances and found both novel solutions to programming problems and rather interesting ideas for future applications. They alter your perceptions in such a way that you can look at a problem at a different perspective than that of a sober mind.

A 'heightened' state of consciousness IS an 'altered' state of consciousness by definition. Sleep is an 'altered' state of consciousness, so are deep states of meditation. Labelling some states as 'higher' and others as not is arbitrary.
The practice taught by the Buddha involves examining the regular old everyday mind. I don't see how chemically altering the state of mind can help with that.
Observing phenomena in one state of mind, and comparing the observation of the same phenomena in another state of mind leads to some insight about the nature of that phenomena. When observing the dramatic perceptive changes induced with substances such as LSD or Psilocybin, including changes in the very way we see ourselves, it can lead to some rather stunning insights into how the mind behaves.

These substances should not be carelessly abused, but you cannot simply dismiss their value.
Sorry, Viscid, not trying to be obnoxious, but I do dismiss their value, because they are crutches, and everything that can be attained using those can also be obtained by a clear mind as well, if it learns independant work, -which is a fundamental requirement for enlightenment.

It has learned how to get there without substances, and can do it again anytime.
A substance user needs the substance. So he is not free and independant.

He is like a thief who steals the keys to a sanctuary, but, as if by magic, the keys will vanish after a while, and he will find himself outside of it again.

A trained mind can access it by will, through practice.

Many geniuses or artists have brooded over insights and found no solution, but woke up at night, either having dreamt it, or simply suddenly "knowing".

Why would I need a substance for things that will come naturally, if only you wait for the right time? Why be impatient? Will an apple ripen in 3 days or will it take a whole summer full of sunlight, warmth, storm, rain, hail and so forth and make it what it is?

One summer of many?

How many summers did the Buddha search for insights?

Did he use substances?
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EricJ
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by EricJ »

Regardless of whether or not certain meditative sensations can be replicated with psychedelic substances, here is the point: we don't meditate to feel these sensations or have visions. We meditate to gain liberation, and this includes detaching ourselves from the experiences of meditation. Creating experiences which are artificially similar to meditative sensations does not mean that such practices are skillful and lead to progression along the path. The sensations that arise in the course of meditation are the result of concentration and the refining of the mind. Psychedelic substances give rise to temporary, compounded feelings, not as a result of training in concentration, but through an artificial altering of brain chemistry. These experiences cease and can only be replicated through continued consumption of psychedelics; and, unlike training in samatha meditation, consumption of psychedelics has no Dhammic benefits in our daily lives. Samatha, unlike psychedelics, replaces sensual desire with mindfulness, concentration and renunciation, on and off the cushion. Consumption of psychedelics leaves one with craving for more psychedelic experiences, because hallucinations and feelings of joy and spaciness are fun.

I have taken a psychedelic called LSA before. I thought I would never feel dissatisfied again. I was wrong.
I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Anicca »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?
Yes and yes.

Uppers, downers and booze were never a temptation in the good ol' daze - the psychedelics were in another category.

Remember what the dormouse said - feed your head...

Personally, they really seemed to instill a great need for personal inner change. It seemed they showed that the "mundane, material" style of living was a dead end - that moral, ethical and virtuous values were worth more than fame and gold and - that more drugs were not the correct way to make the change! They did their bit to encourage change, but it takes a "straight" mind to make those changes real and permanent. They did not show the "whole" path - but they were a start.

Others used the same drugs and became neo-nazis and alchoholics. Kamma?

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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Laurens »

I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

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Last edited by Moth on Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by octathlon »

Moth wrote:
Laurens wrote:I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
Thank you. I find this advice to be very wise.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Laurens »

Moth wrote:
Laurens wrote:I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
Thank you. I find this advice to be very wise.
I should put a disclaimer that I am no longer practising Buddhism. I wasn't specifically condoning psychedelics either, I think you should be very careful if you wish to use them. And I am confident that eventually the meditation and the use of psychedelics will probably strike a discord with one another.

I would urge you to arrive at that yourself though, that's all. Giving up psychedelics because someone else says you should probably isn't the best way of doing things. If you do it that way you will just be burying the desire to take psychedelics rather than genuinely giving up attachment to them, so the desire will probably keep cropping up over and over again.

A similar thing happened to me with marijuana, I stopped because of the 5th precept. But that wasn't a good enough reason to break my old patterns, so they would just emerge time and time again. It has to be a decision arrived at through insight, not through burying old patterns and attachments.

Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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