Buddhism and Psychedelics

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Moth
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Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by tiltbillings »

Ah, the 60's.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Reductor
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Reductor »

Moth wrote:... though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
I would say now is the time for discarding, Moth. Don't alter your the chemical balance of your brain willynilly. Bad mojo.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Kenshou »

Do they help you to understand the impermanence and unreliability of all phenomena, and to end clinging and aversion? I kinda doubt it. More likely to take you down some colorful and appealing but useless sideroads I think, and that's just more samsara. Real insight needs to be found in reality as it is, not when viewed through psilocybin-tinted goggles.
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SDC
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by SDC »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?
In my humble opinion, yes. The aim of the practice is to awaken to reality. The last thing we need is a substance that not only distorts reality for a given period of time, but also may fool us into believing that we've had certain experiences that may not have been so. I feel we must be sharp without the aid of anything, except the knowledge and skill of the Buddha's teachings. That way we know that we are facing experience with all of our strengths and weaknesses...as we are. With that knowledge there can be no fooling ourselves.
Moth wrote:Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist...
For a long time I believed this about myself. Now I'm not sure, but I will/can never rule it out.

I look back on the times I used mushrooms and various other substances and I smile. It was a lot of fun. But I see no use for it any longer.

Be safe.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Goedert
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Goedert »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
Yes, they break up the fifth precet.

There Buddha teached us how to get in blissfull states, it is called samadhi.

There is a natural blissfull state that can be achieved trough samadhi at any time. It is better then any sex, any drug, any mundane pleasure that exist. The only supirior is the beggining of sammasamadhi.
:namaste:
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acinteyyo
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by acinteyyo »

Moth wrote:... however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion...
Hi Moth,

those aren't "heightened" states of consciousness at all. It's delusion, ignorance because of a lack of mindfulness, due to the consumption of intoxicants, which leads to carelessness.

One should try to keep the precept, to refrain from taking intoxicants.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by jcsuperstar »

SDC wrote:
I look back on the times I used mushrooms and various other substances and I smile. It was a lot of fun. But I see no use for it any longer.
.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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OcTavO
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by OcTavO »

I think it's pretty unequivocal what the Buddha had to say about mind altering substances...
Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
Kenshou
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Kenshou »

Well, I could be wrong but I think the original precept deals only with alcohol, and so a stubborn person could use that as an excuse to do other drugs and not be technically wrong, though you don't need to tell me that in order to act with the intended spirit of the precept we should abstain from all mind-altering drugs in general.
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

Kenshou wrote:Do they help you to understand the impermanence and unreliability of all phenomena, and to end clinging and aversion? I kinda doubt it. More likely to take you down some colorful and appealing but useless sideroads I think, and that's just more samsara. Real insight needs to be found in reality as it is, not when viewed through psilocybin-tinted goggles.
It has often been the case that they take me down, as you say, colorful but useless side roads, more so when I first began using them. However now it just shows me my ego, shows me my habits, my patterns, and allows me to overcome them through this recognition. The experience itself is transient, all sensual pleasure is useless, the only benefit is the necessary surrender. The last time I used mushrooms I went to this park alone, sat, and meditated. It was not at all pleasant but I just kept sitting there, regardless of the sensations, remaining detached yet mindful. The enjoyable aspect was coming down, coming back to reality, and being able to apply this new understanding I had of myself.

This is just more Samsara, but isn't everything?. Ultimately though, I agree that real insight does need to be found in reality, without external aid. Psychedelics are most certainly an attachment that I should let go of.

May you be happy, may you be at peace, may you be free from suffering,
-Moth
Last edited by Moth on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by jcsuperstar »

Nothing exists outside Samsara, even Nibbana.
:shrug:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by PeterB »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice? I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion. If taken not for the actual state of intoxication but rather for the understanding it brings to normal life, I feel these tools can be quite beneficial. Further, were it not for such experiences I feel I would never have ended up a Buddhist, though like all vessels, I know these things must eventually be discarded. I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
Yes. And more importantly...yes.
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Tex
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Tex »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept
Yes.
Moth wrote:and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?
Without question.
Moth wrote:I myself find occasional use beneficial if approached properly, however I can understand how such heightened states of consciousness can lead to attachment and confusion.
They're not heightened states of conscious, they're altered states of consciousness. You might perceive them as higher than normal consciousness at the time because, well, you're high. If you use those substances again, try writing down all of those deep thoughts, really ramble on for a few pages, then read them a few days later when you're sober. I think you'll find a few pages of complete gibberish.

The practice taught by the Buddha involves examining the regular old everyday mind. I don't see how chemically altering the state of mind can help with that.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

Tex wrote:The practice taught by the Buddha involves examining the regular old everyday mind.
True.
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