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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:24 am
by lojong1
Moth wrote:I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
I should have had plain peach and melon without that artificial tripleberry sponge crap.

~ The Psychedelic Experience ~
A manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead
By Timothy Leary, Ph.D., Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., & Richard Alpert, Ph.D.

http://www.leary.ru/download/leary/Timo ... 20Dead.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Drug tests, Tibetan Dhamma, government interference...otherwise I dunno yet what's in it.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:51 pm
by Potato
There are some religions in which psychedelic use is an accepted practice. Buddhism is not one of them. If you want to experiment with such things, that's up to you, but don't try to legitimize such experimentation as arcane Buddhist practice. To do so is to do both yourself and Buddhism a disservice.

Timothy Leary may have found parts of the Dharma appealing, but I don't think he studied it in great depth.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:46 pm
by lojong1
Potato wrote:...don't try to legitimize such experimentation as arcane Buddhist practice.
Alrighty then, I didn't and I won't.
Timothy Leary may have found parts of the Dharma appealing, but I don't think he studied it in great depth.
Agreed. Same with Aleister Crowley, who had some respect for the Buddha-Dhamma but clung to his own deepest unwholesomeness and died [an angry drug addict?].

For one who has not taken any precepts and is not a member of the sangha, I say go hard and good luck with that. At best, if it doesn't completely destroy you, you'll convince yourself that the mind is capable of some wacky sht, then stop using.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:29 pm
by Moth
lojong1 wrote:Agreed. Same with Aleister Crowley, who had some respect for the Buddha-Dhamma but clung to his own deepest unwholesomeness and died [an angry drug addict?].
Aleister Crowley isolated the technique of Samadhi, mastered it (supposedly), and then assumped he had mastered Buddhism. It's funny how he completely disregarded mindfulness and compassion.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:08 pm
by lojong1
Moth wrote:Aleister Crowley
Then again, maybe he cultivated his reputation as a way to ensure his teachings, and buddhism, would remain in the world longer. With as strong a base in samatha as he advocated, would it even be possible to go so far astray?
Now there is a whole new-age scene of depressed, 'cutter', black-magic dabbling, drug-addicted, outcast satanists who would likely be turned off of buddhism by an orthodox first impression. They check out 'Magick in Theory and Practice' and find that, in order to progress in that discipline, they first need the same foundation as a buddhist!
Crowley's greatest teacher and lifelong friend was the first--or among the first--westerners to ordain in Burma, and helped spread real Dhamma in England.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:40 pm
by Kenshou
lojong1 wrote: With as strong a base in samatha as he advocated, would it even be possible to go so far astray?
There's nothing much uniquely Buddhist about it, and a person can be really good at samatha or samadhi or whatever while still holding all sorts of funky (and "wrong", from the Buddhist perspective) views.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:58 pm
by lojong1
Kenshou wrote:There's nothing much uniquely Buddhist about it, and a person can be really good at samatha or samadhi or whatever while still holding all sorts of funky (and "wrong", from the Buddhist perspective) views.
Agreed 100%. The sloppy question was, can you attain Jhana while forcing your wife to screw goats, and sodomizing the offspring before eating it for dinner? Or will a strong base of samatha necessarily clean up a guy's act a little?

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:49 am
by jcsuperstar
i don't know how this thread got off and on to Aleister Crowley, but there was nothing particularly Buddhist about anything he said, did or taught. and concentration techniques are not
Buddhism although we may use them in Buddhism. I've known people deeply into occult practices and I've read all the recommended literature on the subject to see if the claims made that our two practices overlap and i can say no they don't. practicing breath meditation does not make one a Buddhist, in fact i first learned breath meditation in 3rd grade as a stress relieving practice, nothing Buddhist about that either. Hinduism, taoism, christian mysticism and shamanistic practices use concentration techniques as well, so do remote seeing practices and other "mental cultivation" practices. in fact the first step in any mental training seems to be to sit down and shut up. the similarities tend to end there.



:focus:

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:46 am
by lojong1
Thread lead to Crowley because he was a drug fiend; and I figure OP doesn't mind, and may not even consider this off topic. I admit, my link between Crowley and Buddhism is far-fetched, but Crowley, Thelema and drugs go together so well, and Jcsuperstar gave such mixed messages about the off-topicness of their interelatedness...
Concentration techniques are not Buddhism although we may use them in Buddhism.
I agreed with that in my last post.
I've known people deeply into occult practices and I've read all the recommended literature on the subject to see if the claims made that our two practices overlap and i can say no they don't.
I'm talking Crowley and Jhana practice, that's it. If Crowley/Thelemites and Buddhists practice Jhanas, then yes there is overlap. On Occult literature: "the most common form of the Wiccan Rede is 'An it harm none, do what ye will'." Argue all you like, I'm calling that a very buddhist thing to say. It's a reworded interpretation of Crowley's own 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!,' and his own commentaries on the meaning show that it 'overlaps' SOME buddhist teachings nicely.
Practicing breath meditation does not make one a Buddhist
Buddha practiced it before he 'became a Buddhist.' If an angry young Thelemite with no interest in Dhamma learns to enter Jhana after reading Crowley or practicing breath meditation, it will then be easier for him to relate to buddhism. Any small step towards Nibbaana makes you a temporary buddhist [I'm not interested in converting to another view of that right now].
In fact i first learned breath meditation in 3rd grade as a stress relieving practice, nothing Buddhist about that either.
Nothing Buddhist about stress relief? Dukkha, 4 Noble Truths, Samma-Samadhi...It's just not uniquely buddhist, as Kenshou clarified.
Sit down and shut up. The similarities tend to end there.
Until you add Jhana, and I'm still waiting for an answer: Is it possible that Crowley would have been able to commit the unwholesome acts he was infamous for, while at the same time developing Jhanas? If not, then drug addicted outcasts reading his work may in that way be jumping even closer to arahantship than merely sharing common ground with an insincere 'buddhist'. If that isn't the making of a real buddhist, then I lose this one.

Moth no longer needs Crowley or drugs because they did help him. Way off?

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:02 am
by Kenshou
Is it possible that Crowley would have been able to commit the unwholesome acts he was infamous for, while at the same time developing Jhanas?
Well first of all, do we know that he was doing jhana practice specifically? Or some other kind of general tranquility meditation of some kind?

Secondly, the suppression of unwholesome states due to jhana is a temporary thing, the only permanent fix is enlightenment. It isn't as if the parts of the mind capable of unwholesome things are burnt off totally, and so unwholesome action is still possible.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:22 am
by PeterB
What the hell is this thread about now ? How did we start with a request to condone drug taking and end up in the alienated loony tune world of Alistair Crowley ?
Or maybe in fact in was a logical and inevitable progession.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:29 am
by jcsuperstar
couple things:

is jhana specific to only Buddhism? no

does the effect of meditation practice necessarily lead one closer to nibbana? no. look at the story of Devadatta, someone who gained great magical powers yet failed to even gain stream entry.

there is a difference between samadhi and the Buddha's right samadhi (probably why the Buddha pointed it out) so if one isn't practicing samadhi in the way instructed by the Buddha for the purposes that he taught such practices, one is not doing a Buddhist practice.
If not, then drug addicted outcasts reading his work may in that way be jumping even closer to arahantship than merely sharing common ground with an insincere 'buddhist'. If that isn't the making of a real buddhist, then I lose this one.
i have no idea what this means :shrug:

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:31 am
by jcsuperstar
PeterB wrote:What the hell is this thread about now ? How did we start with a request to condone drug taking and end up in the alienated loony tune world of Alistair Crowley ?
Or maybe in fact in was a logical and inevitable progession.
:shrug: loosing focus seems to be a common trait with the use of Psychedelics

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:34 am
by PeterB
Tell me about it....when I first got into Dhamma a group of my friends did too.
The ones that stayed with it were the ones who avoided psychedelics, in the main.

Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:56 pm
by Moth
lojong1 wrote:Is it possible that Crowley would have been able to commit the unwholesome acts he was infamous for, while at the same time developing Jhanas? If not, then drug addicted outcasts reading his work may in that way be jumping even closer to arahantship than merely sharing common ground with an insincere 'buddhist'. If that isn't the making of a real buddhist, then I lose this one.

Moth no longer needs Crowley or drugs because they did help him. Way off?
I used to be quite fond of Aleister Crowley, specifically 'Magick in Theory and Practice' as you mention. However after a few months into my study of Thelema, I could no longer bear its fundamental contradiction. Crowley uses "Buddhist" meditation as a basic means of progression in his magickal system. In the first chapter of Magick he attempts to strip Buddhism down into a basic formula, essentially focusing only on Samadhi techniques. However Samadhi alone, as the Buddha explicitly states, is not a means to enlightenment, cannot produce wisdom in of itself, and is ultimately transient (that is, confined to the meditation itself). Thus it is only one aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Aleister Crowley illustrates this beautifully, as despite his mastery of Samadhi he was still full of defilement. What really helped me realize this was reading his autobiography, in which it becomes painful clear how self-obsessed, racist, cruel, lustful, etc the man was. Progress towards enlightenment is characterized by the cessation of defilements. In each of the four stages certain defilements are either suppressed or completely uprooted, until alas none remain. This most certainly was not the case for Crowley as his entire philosophy centered around pleasing his demons, and look where that got him.

Magick fundamentally concerns itself with desire. Whether it be desire for esoteric understanding, desire of material gain or sensual pleasure, or desire for spiritual rank (i.e. his hierarchical system based on the tree of life). Buddhism is fundamentally concerned with the cessation of desire (or more specifically craving). The momentum of Buddhism is renunciation and dissolution whilst the momentum of magick is indulgence and consumption.

To address your last point, Crowley and drugs helped me overcome Crowley and drugs. No! Mindfulness helped me overcome Crowley and drugs. I have had this discussion with my friends who are still drug users and they have tried to make the point that despite having given them up, these things helped me reach the path I've now chosen. In the sense that you have to make mistakes in order to learn, yes, I suppose they are correct. Magick lead me to make many huge mistakes, the ramifications of which ultimately lead me to seek out Buddhism, simply through the intensity of my suffering at the time. Psychedelics gave me a glimpse of non-self but only for a moment, at the same time confusing me a great deal. I no way do I recommend them as a vessel towards the Buddhist path, as I feel I was lucky to escape them. Many simply do not have the same realization.