Zen Vs Therevada

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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Sobeh » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:12 am

Are there extant comparisons of their Vinayas?
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:05 am

Sobeh wrote:Are there extant comparisons of their Vinayas?
Whose Vinaya? Japanese Zen does not have a Vinaya.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Sobeh » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:Japanese Zen does not have a Vinaya.


:jawdrop:

I expected something.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:38 am

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Japanese Zen does not have a Vinaya.


:jawdrop:

I expected something.
There is a fairly complicated history around that. Part of it has to do with the japanese government putting an end to the Vinaya. Other "Zen" school monks do follow Vinaya rules. There are extensive comparative studies of the Vinayas. If Ven Paññāsikhara were still posting here, he could direct you to them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:15 am

if you take the Thai forest tradition of the 20th century and compare it to some zen, you'll get many similarities. some think that maybe this is because Chan monks may have wandered into thailand and that Thai thudong monks may have bumped into Chan monks on their journeys as well. also Thai Buddhism especially in the north and north east (where we get most of our famous forest monks) prior to modernization was an area with many many different Buddhist groups, (in Thai nikaya) now we just have the 2: dhammayut and mahanikaya, but the reason it is called the maha nikaya is because it is made up of all those other nikayas, 100 years ago or so there where 18 in chaing mai alone, all with their own customs and practices. Thai Buddhism is by no means a monolithic institution now, but compared to the past it may seem so. anyways what this may point to is that at some point in the past a Chan (zen) influence may have been introduced into Thai Buddhism. also yogacara ideas may have been introduced (or the fact that zen has some of these may explain the similarities too?).

and as for zen, my personal views on the school is that it didn't start out as a Mahayana school. Bodhidharma was from southern India, and traveled to shaolin temple, a "hinayana" temple at the time. the idea that he taught the lankavatara sutra is odd, as he takes on students, trains them, then only as he is leaving them, fully trained, does he mention anything about this sutra. seems like something just tacked on.
also in Dogen's works he has a different take on arahants than is standard Mahayana but whatever after 1500 plus years of cultural and mahayana influence it matters little . but there are some similarities.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:26 am

Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Japanese Zen does not have a Vinaya.


:jawdrop:

I expected something.

The Soto school founded by Jiyu Kennett in the west follows the Vinaya. I think in order to do so it was necessary for them to receive initial ordination from an authentic source. I dont recall of the details off hand.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:39 am

PeterB wrote:
Sobeh wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Japanese Zen does not have a Vinaya.


:jawdrop:

I expected something.

The Soto school founded by Jiyu Kennett in the west follows the Vinaya. I think in order to do so it was necessary for them to receive initial ordination from an authentic source. I dont recall of the details off hand.

i cant find any info on it :shrug:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:46 am

No, I checked once before...I dimly remember it all happening at the time, and the report in the Buddhist Societys " Middle Way" journal...but I dont remember the details. I could ask So-On Mann over at ZFI. She is knowledgeable about Jiyu Kennett.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:30 am

i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, and reintroduce the classic monastic institutions, seems simple enough right? but then i realized after spending time with Japanese Buddhists, that my view is just that of an outsider and they are for the most part perfectly happy with their forms of Buddhism.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:38 am

I think it may have been like that with Jiyu Kennett JC. It could even have been a Sri Lankan connection...So-On might know.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:39 am

jcsuperstar wrote:i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, . . . .
Tradition.

Chinese Ch'an I do believe functions in a Vinaya lineage.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, . . . .


Chinese Ch'an I do believe functions in a Vinaya lineage.

yes it does

Tradition.

well it worked for them, and not in that way tibetan Buddhists say "i know Tibetan Buddhism is true, because it works" because i have never understood what that meant, what i mean is it has worked as a vehicle for carrying cultural norms as a means of comfort through disasters, wars, etc. it's tied up into what it means to be Japanese, it holds a sense of identity. it's hard to change something like that.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:00 pm

Well I was wrong basically.... :roll:

So-On tells me that the Jiyu Kennett folk are required to be celebate but do not and never have followed the Vinaya.
I dont know where I got that idea from...
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:03 pm

A friend of mine is a Soto Zen monk, and her group is traveling to China in the Fall to spend some time in a Chan monastery. Because they are not Vinaya monks, the Zen monks will not be wearing their robes and will be considered lay civilians.

My friend was surprised to learn that entertainment was against the rules, and was amused by the requirement of sleeping in low, uncomfortable beds. Monks in her Zendo store and cook food for themselves (although the emphasis is on community meals.)
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:12 pm

Which reminds me: Gil Fronsdale has a number of Dharma talk podcasts at both Zencast.org and IMS. He was a Soto Zen monk and Abbot of a monastery, but also studied Vipassana for many years in Theravadan countries. Often in his talks, he will compare and differentiate the Zen and the Theravada. Seems like a good resource to the OP.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:20 pm

For example: http://audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1239.html

[Sorry for my stream of consciousness posts...]
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby christopher::: » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:40 pm

Hi all,

I think the strongest correspondance (commonality) of Zen and Theravada is with the emphasis on seated meditation and mindfulness practice. One thing that's puzzled me however is that while Zen Buddhists teach and practice mindfulness extensively they are less likely to talk about it in as detailed a manner as Theravadins. Thich Nhat Hanh is the Zen teacher who has taught mindfulness most extensively, along with Gil Fronsdal. Both make use of Pali sources, so it's a rich area where there are strong similarities in method, as well as some differences.

I was initially drawn to Zen through Shunryu Suzuki's book Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and experiences i had in Japan with the traditional arts, which teach right mindfulness, concentration and effort. That and Thich Nhat Hanh's book Miracle of Mindfulness have had a strong impact on my practice. Now as i dig deeper into Theravadan teachings i'm drawn most to the IMS and Thai Forest teachers, and i think the reason there is that emphasis on being mindful moment-to-moment, with your body, breathe, movements and mind.

What is the difference between mindful walking (on a vipassana retreat) and mindfully making tea, cleaning a Zen temple or doing caligraphy? These are different exercises that seem to cultivate similar understandings and skills.

We may have different ways of talking about and conceptualizing the dharma/dhamma but for those whom meditation and mindfulness are central to their practice we are sharing a huge common ground.

In my opinion.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby bodom » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:03 pm

What is the difference between mindful walking (on a vipassana retreat) and mindfully making tea, cleaning a Zen temple or doing caligraphy? These are different exercises that seem to cultivate similar understandings and skills.

We may have different ways of talking about and conceptualizing the dharma/dhamma but for those whom meditation and mindfulness are central to their practice we are sharing a huge common ground.


:thumbsup:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Zen Vs Therevada?
My money is on the zen guys. They have those sticks you know.
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:01 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Zen Vs Therevada?
My money is on the zen guys. They have those sticks you know.

So who needs sticks?
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3127548160/tt0190332

:bow:
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