A quote from Ajahn Brahm

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A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Laurens » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:28 pm

"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:54 pm

You vision is right.

Scientically beings envole by means of natural selection, 'Only the strong survive'. The beings who are cappable to live in the harsh and extreme conditions are the ones that can reproduct, passing the DNA and RNA combinations to next generations.

We have to see the context of this statament, because science say another thing very different from Ajahn Brahm.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:55 pm

Hi Laurens,

I don't think you got the point.
Laurens wrote:What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection ...

Naturally there's evolution acertainable, the "rules" or scientific regularities, which have been observed by which evolution happens is called natural selection.
wikipedia wrote:Evolution is the change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms through successive generations
In order that there can be change in traits, they have to be passed on in some way to successive generations.
But what drives this process of passing on traits to successive generations? What drives organisms to pass on their genes?
It's craving.
Laurens wrote:How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever.
If there wouldn't be any craving at all, why would anyone pass on his or her genes? Certainly it cannot force future generations to do anything, but could there be evolution if there wouldn't be any craving at all? In order for evolution to happen there have to be traits passed on. Without heredity transmisson there's no way for evolution to happen and without any craving, there's no heredity transmission.

What I'm trying to say is, organisms envole by means of natural selection, but if there wouldn't be craving and desire for the various things to do, in order to pass on traits, there couldn't be evolution.

Just my two cents...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Laurens » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:36 pm

His words are 'craving to evolve' not 'craving sex' or 'craving to reproduce'...
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Fruitzilla » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:55 pm

I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVBnjk&feature=watch_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:36 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVBnjk&feature=watch_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.


Are you being ironical? Because I don't see any intelectual honesty in his words. He even has problems with calling Ajahn Brahm Ajahn Brahm, let alone dealing with buddhist questions.

Of course Ajahn Brahm is wrong in what concerns evolution.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:39 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVBnjk&feature=watch_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.


That is a strong point.

Because a talk like this (Ajahn Brahm), many people get a wrong view about buddhism (this guy).
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Fruitzilla » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:49 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fruitzilla wrote:I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVBnjk&feature=watch_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.


Are you being ironical? Because I don't see any intelectual honesty in his words. He even has problems with calling Ajahn Brahm Ajahn Brahm, let alone dealing with buddhist questions.

Of course Ajahn Brahm is wrong in what concerns evolution.


Well, apart from the tone of the guy, he does make a lot of valid points. I see Ajahn Brahm use "evidence" in the same way I've heard Christians use it very often. He only uses what is in favour of his argument, and portrays it in a light as favourable as possible. I think the reply makes that rather clear.
That's pretty much what I meant by the lack of intellectual honesty of the talk.

There's lots of discussion regarding Stevenson also, and there's some pretty good critical points made in regards to his methodology. Which ofcourse never get mentioned by people who have an agenda to push....
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Viscid » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:50 pm

Well, you can interpret that however you like:

Such as:
No evolution in Nibbana!
or
Ajahn Brahm isn't a scientist but believes his metaphysical convictions are solid enough to make such declarations.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:02 pm

In fact there is a lot of non-sense that is presented to people as buddhism. That is the counterfait dhamma.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:12 pm

Laurens wrote:"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens


Something drives the big whatever it is to manifest in form. Calling it craving seems a good enough name for it. Rather than giving AB a biology book to look at, i suggest you perfect your instrument of observation to the level he has.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:32 pm

Laurens wrote:"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens



I will have to see the vid.

The only thing that I can suggest is that desire does play a big role in human evolution. Those who desire more invent more things to satisfy those desires and conquer those people who didn't.

Also desire can be a very powerful motivator for action. The more you want to get something, the more likely you are to actually do it.


IMHO.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Goedert » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:57 am

DNA and its constituints have nothing to do with desire.

Human evolution come from DNA, not craving.

Remember we are talk about elements, fire, water, earth, air. We are not talking about mind and its objects.

If you guys think something different I suggest you a bit of wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evol ... y_genetics

Buddhism is not insanity of mind.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby appicchato » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:43 am

To me evolution covers all of life here on Earth...with the exception of humans ( and not too long ago them as well) who, or what, was/is craving to evolve?...humans are, in many ways, basically the most screwed up life form there is...
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:11 am

Greetings,

appicchato wrote:To me evolution covers all of life here on Earth...with the exception of humans ( and not too long ago them as well) who, or what, was/is craving to evolve?.....

It's interesting, because I doubt whether any other species can even conceive of the notion of the evolution of a species... continuance of the species perhaps, but I doubt they could fathom such an elaborate concept. Yet, species do evolve. Viruses evolve. Do viruses crave evolution?

I've not seen the video above (can't access it at the moment), but based on the wording alone, I think Ajahn Brahma's logic is rather spurious and unnecessarily speculative.

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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby nameless » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:14 am

He is not stating desire and craving as a mechanism through which evolution happens. He is saying that desire is the driving force.

Why is there a cup of tea on my table? If you're talking about the process through which it was made, it's because hot water was boiled, put in a cup with a teabag, and the cup then placed on the table. If you're talking about drive, it's because I desired a cup of tea.

Why does evolution happen? The process is through natural selection. The drive is through desire.

True, craving and desire by itself does not create more chance of passing on genes. However, if you compare two organisms whose evolutionary competitiveness is equal in all respects, who will leave more offspring? The one with more desire to eat, reproduce, protect progeny, protect territory. Of course in real life no individuals are equal in all respects, so desire becomes one of many factors that promote competitiveness.

Anyway let's look at the other point of view and assume that he's made a horrible unforgivable mistake. OP says that she's lost a lot of respect for him. That implies that there was a lot of respect for him in the first place, you can't lose what you don't have. Why did you respect him in the first place? You probably have some good reasons. So you're going to throw that away because of one mistake? Who loses in the end?
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Dhammakid » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:43 am

In my opinion, this...

nameless wrote:He is not stating desire and craving as a mechanism through which evolution happens. He is saying that desire is the driving force.

Why is there a cup of tea on my table? If you're talking about the process through which it was made, it's because hot water was boiled, put in a cup with a teabag, and the cup then placed on the table. If you're talking about drive, it's because I desired a cup of tea.

Why does evolution happen? The process is through natural selection. The drive is through desire.

True, craving and desire by itself does not create more chance of passing on genes. However, if you compare two organisms whose evolutionary competitiveness is equal in all respects, who will leave more offspring? The one with more desire to eat, reproduce, protect progeny, protect territory. Of course in real life no individuals are equal in all respects, so desire becomes one of many factors that promote competitiveness.

Anyway let's look at the other point of view and assume that he's made a horrible unforgivable mistake. OP says that she's lost a lot of respect for him. That implies that there was a lot of respect for him in the first place, you can't lose what you don't have. Why did you respect him in the first place? You probably have some good reasons. So you're going to throw that away because of one mistake? Who loses in the end?


...is a :goodpost:

It's what I was going to say - that natural selection is the mechanism by which organisms evolve, but that the driving force is craving for becoming, attachment to form and sensuality, etc.

If it were not for craving for becoming, sentient beings would not take form at all. And because we are constantly in a state of craving until that fetter is set down, we are constantly taking form. Furthermore, the majority of members of a species crave survival - that is why we eat, sleep, have sex and protect land. It is why so many of us are adamant about having children. This is also reflected in the collective behavior of nations, religions, organizations, families, etc - we recruit members, we raise money, and we plan for the future, all because we want to survive as a group. We will do whatever it takes to survive.

If beings were to stop craving further becoming, thus ceasing activities that ensure survival, evolution would stop.

I may be wrong here but it's what I'm thinking at the moment.

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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:50 am

appicchato wrote:To me evolution covers all of life here on Earth...with the exception of humans ( and not too long ago them as well) who, or what, was/is craving to evolve?...humans are, in many ways, basically the most screwed up life form there is...
indeed.

The emergence of intelligence, I am convinced, tends to unbalance the ecology. In other words, intelligence is the great polluter. It is not until a creature begins to manage its environment that nature is thrown into disorder. Until that occurs, there is a system of checks and balances operating in a logical and understandable manner. Intelligence destroys and modifies the checks and balances even as it tries very diligently to leave them as they were. There is no such thing as an intelligence living harmony with the biosphere. It may think and boast it is doing so, but its mentality gives it an advantage and the compulsion is always there to employ this advantage to its selfish benefit. Thus, while intelligence may be an outstanding survival factor, the factor is short-term, and intelligence turns out to be the great destroyer. -- written by a crazy character in SHAKESPEARE'S PLANET, a sci-fi novel by Clifford Simak, 1976.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:52 am

I think folks here are way too literal sometimes. Ajahn Brahm was not teaching a biology class, he was offering a Dhamma talk. He also tells ghost stories. When he shares ghost stories, he is not claiming to be a parapsychologist. He is sharing an inspirational story. One can be absolute in their belief that ghosts don't really exist, and still find inspiration in the ghost story.
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Re: A quote from Ajahn Brahm

Postby Goedert » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:57 am

nameless wrote:He is not stating desire and craving as a mechanism through which evolution happens. He is saying that desire is the driving force.

Why is there a cup of tea on my table? If you're talking about the process through which it was made, it's because hot water was boiled, put in a cup with a teabag, and the cup then placed on the table. If you're talking about drive, it's because I desired a cup of tea.

Why does evolution happen? The process is through natural selection. The drive is through desire.

True, craving and desire by itself does not create more chance of passing on genes. However, if you compare two organisms whose evolutionary competitiveness is equal in all respects, who will leave more offspring? The one with more desire to eat, reproduce, protect progeny, protect territory. Of course in real life no individuals are equal in all respects, so desire becomes one of many factors that promote competitiveness.

Anyway let's look at the other point of view and assume that he's made a horrible unforgivable mistake. OP says that she's lost a lot of respect for him. That implies that there was a lot of respect for him in the first place, you can't lose what you don't have. Why did you respect him in the first place? You probably have some good reasons. So you're going to throw that away because of one mistake? Who loses in the end?


Unfortunatily how can we apply desire to artificial fecundation? Plants? Early organic molecules?

Try to see or research on Miller expiriment.

I can't see fire, water, air or earth having craving to evolution.

If you guys are saying this. I ask this questio:

If a being is genarated from a precedent one, How the FIRST being arose?

Suggest read Oparin Theory.
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