Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:17 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.
But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful requires a degree of concentration.

Concentration arises with every citta. With it is right or wrong depends.
Sure, but it is a matter of stability and strength of concentration which is what is cultivated by sitting practice such as taught by U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:06 pm

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Samadhi needs to be developed in a specific way.
With Metta

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:00 pm

The Visuddhimagga does say that:

[A. UNDERSTANDING]
1. [436] Now concentration was described under the heading of consciousness in the stanza:

When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding* (Ch. I, §1).

And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has
acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits [described in Chs. XII and XIII]. But understanding comes next. And that has still to be developed.
VsM XIV,1

Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v,3), its proximate cause is concentration.
-VsM, XIV,7

Now concentration is described under the heading of 'consciousness' in the phrase 'develops consciousness and understanding'
(Ch. I, §1). It should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness
of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practices. - VsM III,1


Understanding comes after concentration. The VsM does state that understanding requires concentration and concentration requires virtue (that may have to be perfected by observance of the ascetic practices).

The VsM does go into detail about suitable places and about obstacles to concentration. Judging by heavy requirements it suggests that for most people it is not some momentary and easily to obtain concentration but something that may have to be developed in a retreat setting.

Ten Impediments:
A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." - VsM III, 29

As to unfavourable monastery :
"Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond,
[edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of
entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not
favourable. He should not live there. " - VsM - IV,2



So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:32 am

Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.


Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.

The Visuddhimagga, however, does strongly recommend purfiying sila and developing concentration to strong a degree as an additional support to this and also because it is kusala kamma in and of itself, imo.

All the best,
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:06 am

Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.


Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:12 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.


Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?

Develop Right Understanding.

Suttas don't say it explicitly but many attained not praciticing anything, like the girl who bought flowers for the king to set up at funerals. She sold flowers every day and stole from the king. He would give her money for so many bundles and she would only buy half and pocket the rest of the money. She didn't follow any ascetics or meditate. Then she went with her friend to see the Buddha talk and she became a sotapanna during the talk. After that, she refused to steal money from the King anymore and told the Queen what she had done. The Queen converted then.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:21 am

Nice story. So, there is something we can do, there is choice that I can make in my practice: I can develop Right Understanding, which would include Right Mindfulness and Right Samadhi. In other words, by choosing to cultivate mindfulness and concentration I can come to a point of seeing the rise and fall of the aspects of the mind/body process that come into awareness, leading to the direct experience of impermanence, thusly vipassana. And Right Understanding then becomes more than mere conceptualization.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:29 am

Alex123 wrote:The Visuddhimagga does say that:

it suggests that for most people it is not some momentary and easily to obtain concentration but something that may have to be developed in a retreat setting.

.


Please quote where exactly the Visuddhimagga says this .


the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
Last edited by robertk on Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:35 am

Alex123 wrote:The Visuddhimagga does say that:

[So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


.

It has been pointed out again and again - that there are different types of attainers. Very few were jhana labhi .

Also where does it say that ,as you claim, the Vis. is a step by step manual. You realy think one starts at page 1 , follows all the types of sila, then moves on to the Concentartion section and works through the different jhanas one by one on each of the 38 objects. Please do give the reference.

Could the mods please note this is supposed to be Classical forum.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:40 am

Greetings Robert,

robertk wrote:Could the mods please note this is supposed to be Classical forum.

Either report a post explaining why it's a violation of the forum rules, ignore it, or just respond to it.

Comments like the above are diversionary and disruptive in themselves. See the forum complaints guidelines for further details.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:15 pm

Dear RobertK2, Kevin, all,

As for "concentration is present in every citta" and thus it follows a suggestion about why develop it?"

I do hope that strong concentration is not required and that path is easier as opposed to harder. I am all for that...

However:

Do hell beings have "concentration"?
Do snipers have lots of concentration? If so, why aren't they awakened?
Why did the Buddha talk about DEVELOPMENT of concentration if it is alrady present?

If one teaches a Dhamma to a person down the street, will he achieve awakening?


There is a sutta that talks about achievement of stream while listening. If one notes carefully the requisites, then one will see that being free at that time from a defilement obstruction is a required thing. From what I remember, the dhutanga practices for example serve the purpose to suppress certain a defilements. Same for deep concentration on the level of 'access' and or above. Sure, concentration in and of itself doesn't make one awakened. But it can supress the a defilement obstruction AND creates lots of good kamma, so that when that person listens to the sutta, s/he could get awakened. Sure, some people may have been very pure by nature and didn't need to forcefully supress kilesas. Not everyone is like that...



"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six?

"He is endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he lacks conviction, has no desire [to listen], and has dull discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?


You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:28 pm

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

It's a little pointless to keep telling people to study texts that they have already, and have already offered explanations to your objections. Clearly you understand these texts, and the teachings of a number of teachers over the past century or so, in a different way from many (most?) others.

I'm a little confused about your current arguments. I understand (but don't accept) the standard Khun Sujin students' view about development not being possible and that the texts don't contain "instructions". But from your posts here: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5154 you seem to have dropped that view, so it's no longer clear to me what exactly your objections are. They now seem to to with subtle differences over how one interprets the instructions.

Mike
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:06 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?


You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
You have not shown it does he does not and I have read it and I don't see what you do, but then I have not claimed to be extra-ordinary, but that is not the question I asked. Is there choice in practice?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
You have not shown it does he does not and I have read it and I don't see what you do, but then I have not claimed to be extra-ordinary, but that is not the question I asked. Is there choice in practice?

Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:25 pm

Virgo wrote:Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question
And here you have it, folks, the rejection of kamma. That's not classical Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Alex123 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:46 am

Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin



Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:42 am

Alex123 wrote:
Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin



Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no


You can read forward a few msgs from this:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3740&hilit=perfections&start=560#p56622

but mostly started reading backwards from the above msg.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question
And here you have it, folks, the rejection of kamma. That's not classical Dhamma.

The rejection of kamma?

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:24 am

Alex123 wrote:
Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin



Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no


I will try to answer it like this. We make "choices" all the time. So, conventionally, yes there are choices... however, there is not a doer or a person to be found. Therefore no doer makes "choices". Yet they occur. How can a "choice" or a decision be made without a doer who makes such a choice? So in reality "choices" are "made" but not by a doer. What happens is cetasikas arise and pull in a certain direction. Those cetasikas pull in whicher direction they do based on how strong the cetasikas that arise are. The specific cetasikas that arise arise based upon accumulations in the citta.

Here's an example. Someone may get very angry when they are wronged. They may commit an act of violence or say foul words that they do not really want to say. However, the anger is so strong that they feel they went "out of control". So who made the decision to say the bad words or do violence? No one, the anger, by conditions arose so strongly that there was no other way things could go. If the anger did not arise as strongly and other cetasikas arose as well, then one be able to "stop oneself" from comitting the bad action even though one is tempted to. The difference is different cetasikas arose due to conditions and accumulations. So a "choice" appears to have been made not to commit the action, yet it was just the strength of the cetasikas that arose, by conditions that motivated this. The whole time we have self view so it appears it was because of a person.

Again there is not a doer or a person. How can a choice be made without an entity to make it? Therefore it is just conditioned nama and rupa that acts based on conditions and accumulations. It appears as choice. Is that to say I can't make the decision to study more dhamma more thoroughly tomorrow? Of course I can, but it is really just a result of certain cetasikas arising -- panna arising that wants to understand deeper, lobha for a good result, aversion to not understanding, and so on.

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