Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

[KonstantKarma]

I see anger, and as a Buddhist, I am curious to what purpose this anger serves, and who is benefited by it.

[chownah]

The Buddha taught that we would do best to have no doctrine of self whatever......from this I take that I should not view the "rapist" as having self or as having no self but rather I should try to see that what happened was due to conditions....the "rapist" was acting from conditioning that goes back for god only knows how long..........I think the Buddha would teach that rape there is but no rapist (or victim) can be found.....
chownah

[Mawkish1983]

Tell that to the girl.

[Dhammakid]

Anna, Peter,
Yes, I absolutely agree - At this point in my practice, I'm not capable and probably unwilling to allow someone to commit an act of physical violence upon myself or my loved ones, and I will probably fight back with everything I have.

I do, however, hope one day (or maybe in a future lifetime) I will have the qualities developed so as to respond in a much more compassionate and less bad kamma-like manner.

My guess is that the little girl isn't Buddhist, and on top of that she's a child, most likely unable to effectively control her emotions and practice mindfulness to such a degree as to deal with the situation in a "Buddhist" manner.

Trust me: I'm not naive, nor am I unrealistic. I speak in idealistic Buddhist terms quite often, but I'm well accquainted with the reality of situations and the likelihood of events.


Dhammakid

[PeterB]

Dhammakid I have not even the intention of one day reaching a position where I would allow anyone to torture me or anyone else in my presence..I think that its the dumbest spiritual aspiration I have ever heard...

[metta_noob]

thanks again to all for sharing their views. There is no doubt that all of us feel and even bleed in our hearts for the child ... i think it goes without saying. That's the natural and easy part. The difficult part is how to handle the emotions arising from my cognizance of the perp ... I was about to type emotions that the perp evoked in my mind but I realised that he doesn't even know me so how can I blame him for my own emotions!

On the score of causes and conditions, which I noticed only nibbida and chownah touched upon, I have another vignette to share from yesterday's dhamma talk. I really wanted to bring up this case and ask the bhante the same questions I'm asking here but I hesitated and she was in a rush to leave for another talk. Instead, another lady asked her how a wife should respond to an adulterous but otherwise good husband. Well, one of her answers was that the wife should consider the possibility that the wife had done something wrong in her previous life(s) to deserve an adulterous husband! Whooooaaaaaa!!! Nothing happens without a reason ... as tough as it is to hear and to accept but that's also how I was taught karma works ... hence, I'm led to believe, the need for equanimity

Sure, Annapurna, I'll update y'all when I know more

PeterB ... is killing in self defence an exception to the 1st precept?

Absolve yourself of the burden of playing mental judge and juror to incidents over which you have no control. Why carry the burden of wanting or wondering what type of punishment this person should get? Best to practice equanimity for the situation and compassion for the perp. This practice is more for you and the development of wholesome qualities of your mind than it is for him, anyway.

How many times during the day do we cultivate and follow unwholesome states of mind? How many times do we wish harm over the driver in front of us who cut us off or didn't check their blind spot or who flicked us off for passing them? How many times do we get angry at our supervisors or at the government or the military or family members?

We are all guilty of unwholesome states of mind. It's better that we first get our minds right before speculating over the mind of another.

Well put ... just what I needed. Thanks dhammakid

[PeterB]

No metta noob killing in self defense is not an exception to the Ist precept. It would break it. And if the choice was actually breaking it or being tortured to death or watching someone else tortured to death I would break it without hesitation. The precepts are not commandments, they dont absolve us from rational behaviour in extreme circumstances. They are gudelines for less extreme circumstances.

[Dhammakid]

Peter: I absolutely understand your sentiment and I find it quite rational and more realistic, especially for layfolk. I guess I'm a bit of an idealist.

But like I said before, at least at this point in my practice, I doubt very seriously I could sit back and allow someone to torture me or my loved ones. It's just not gonna happen.


Dhammakid

[Moth]

Evil exists in the world. It always has. Evil exists in ourselves. It always has. We cannot save the world from evil, but we can save ourselves. To condemn this man to death, pain, etc will only be reinforcing the same energies that motivated him. "Not by hatred is hatred ever pacified." This man is obviously living in a mental hell, I think the Buddhist response to the situation (to the rapist) is simple. May he be happy, may he be at peace, may he be free from suffering, may he realize Nibbana. His misery is only further motivation for such evil acts, only by love will he be able to overcome his violence. We can only hope that his negativity will not carry over in rebirth, and should he be executed now this will surely be guaranteed. As someone mentioned, we are not judges, we are not executioners, we are not on a jury. Do not think for society, think for yourself.

[Moth]

No metta noob killing in self defense is not an exception to the Ist precept. It would break it. And if the choice was actually breaking it or being tortured to death or watching someone else tortured to death I would break it without hesitation. The precepts are not commandments, they dont absolve us from rational behaviour in extreme circumstances. They are gudelines for less extreme circumstances.

It's not that you should watch someone be tortured and do nothing. Stop them by all means. What the Buddha means in the simile of the saw is that we should not allow hatred to enter our hearts. We need not hate the rapist to save the girl (in some hypothetical situation), in fact to stop him is an act of compassion as we are sparing him much grief. However we should not kill him, there are infinitely many ways to save the girl without resorting to murder.

[PeterB]

You deal with your hypothetical torturer your way Moth, and I will deal with my hypothetical torturer my way.
As I said I have no intention of trying to emulate the Buddha on this issue.
Neither am I telling anyone else how to deal with their hypothetical torturers.
In the fairly unlikely situation that either of us has to deal with someone intent on removing our limbs with a saw act as you see best. As will I.

[withoutcolour]

Finding compassion for him, a good practice.

I agree. Think about how messed up his mind must be, and how terrible it must be to live with such a mind.

Mike

[Vepacitta]

I personally am much more concerned about the child's future than any Buddhist responses.

An Amen and a Halleluja to Annapurna's post!

From your friendly, neighbourhood Asura,

V.

NB - and just to be really Asura-like - quite frankly - if one did do away with the [expletive] - it could be looked upon an act of compassion - for it would mean that one less A-----e walks the earth -- and that could only be a good thing.

[Ben]

I personally am much more concerned about the child's future than any Buddhist responses.

An Amen and a Halleluja to Annapurna's post!

From your friendly, neighbourhood Asura,

V.

NB - and just to be really Asura-like - quite frankly - if one did do away with the [expletive] - it could be looked upon an act of compassion - for it would mean that one less A-----e walks the earth -- and that could only be a good thing.

Actually, no good can come from killing another human being. One should be careful to not only to refrain from killing, but also to refrain from encouraging others to kill or to speak in praise of killing.
kind regards

Ben

[Mawkish1983]

no good can come from killing another human being.

Now this has me slightly confused. On the one hand I've seen (over the last few weeks in particular) many arguements in favour of killing in self-defence and even to ensure the safety of others (RE: The tick thread, for example). In these discussions several members of DhammaWheel, some of which I hold in high regard, have presented rational arguements in favour of self-defence (or defence of others) killing; I have thought about these arguements and find myself having difficulty disagreeing with them. On the other hand, I find myself strongly believing what you have said here, Ben, that 'no good can come from killing'. One respected member of DhammaWheel in particular shows no remorse in his assertion that he would readily kill to protect the lives of others, and has said that he believes it was very irresponsible and 'crazy' not too in the given situation.

Now I'm slightly confused here between the ideals I would like to hold (those asserted by Ben here - despite being told even the desire to hold the ideal of killing nothing is illogical, unworkable, irresponsible and even 'crazy' [I can't remember the exact words used, but these convey the same meanings]) and what I probably would do in a given situation. Am I over-analysing Ben's statement above? I recall the topic of 'is it ever skillful to kill' has been thrashed out elsewhere, maybe even here on DW, so it might not be worth starting a new thread.

Actually, scrap all that, I'm going . Sorry.

Edit: Which begs the question, why on Earth did I post that?! Sorry people.