Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby chownah » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:26 pm

Annapurna wrote:
chownah wrote:[quote="Annapurna
Chownah,

You might of course lose a bit from that Buddhist Pollyannaism if your own daughter got raped...

Annapurna,
You are probably wrong about this......this is the way I live my life......the Buddha taught that we should have no doctrine of self whatever and I am doing my best to realize this in my life and to discuss what I see as different aspects of this teaching with others so that we might gain a better understanding. In my life when I feel hatred or disgust toward someone I often stop and reflect on my attitude as one more instance of creating a doctrine of self....a doctrine of self towards that person......I remind myself of the Buddha's teachings that everything happens because of conditions and this reminds me that what I see as unsatisfactory in that other person is a result of conditions and not a result of any "self" which I might construe. I thought that people understood how this works but I guess I was wrong.....and believe me it does really work....the conditions which created the hatred or disgust can perhaps be viewed more clearly and the stress which those emotions create fades away......in my view this is what victims need to learn....in my view this is what we all need to learn......seems like a good thing to me but then this is all only my view....
chownah


What the Buddha taught can only be relevant and beneficial to those rape victims who are are benefitting from the Buddhas teachings, for the rest it is unfortunately useless.



Another aspect is, that we can analyse something in a rational way, but we can't tell our emotions what to do.

"Sit".

"Disappear".

It doesn't work.

Even if physical wounds have healed, emotional wounds will remain.

Rape is often not about sex, but sex a means to exert power, to humiliate, to punish, and to seek revenge.

The humiliation that is felt by a female victim is often extremely hard to understand for a man, because he finds nothing to compare it to.

For her, (ideally) her genital organs are there for someone she loves and admires, a partner. She trusts him not to hurt her, and any man can hurt a woman with his penis, unless it's a very small one.

If a woman is raped, then usually by someone who is beneath her and whom she would refuse to have sex with.

To be entered by such a man constitutes the gravest humiliation a woman can experience.

Some women start questioning themselves, like if they were not careful enough, dressed in the wrong way, or walked in a wrong area alone.

This leads to a loss of trust in herself and in all other men.

This is a grave loss of liberty, joy of life, , but none of this is her fault.

It is only and alone the rapists fault.

Even for Buddhist women it may not be all that easy to process this in a way that will allow her not to see a potential rapist in each man she is alone with in an elevator, a street, or a bus.[/quote]
Annapurna,
The original post asked only one question and here it is, "So as a noob, I'd like to ask you what your response would be as a Buddhist. Before delving into the dhamma, I would also have bayed for blood in anger ... and in fact, I still find it difficult to suppress my feelings of anger against this man. How do you deal with this anger?" The main point of my posting has been to address the questoin of how to deal with the anger which arises in someone who becomes aware of a violent crime. For some reason people seem to think that I am advising giving a dhamma sermon to rape victims......let me dispel this once and for all....I am not advising this....I have not advised this...I will not advise this.....I'm still hoping that Ben will present what he seems to think is my response to a rape victim....I don't know where he got the idea that I had suggested one but I did not.
You wrote, "What the Buddha taught can only be relevant and beneficial to those rape victims who are are benefitting from the Buddhas teachings, for the rest it is unfortunately useless."...I think you are wrong...if the Buddha's teachings make sense then they are beneficial and relevant.......also.....you wrote this as if there is a time limit on how long a person can be classisfied as a rape victim.....my view is that a person can maintain the status of rape victim for as long as there is a traumatic reaction to the event....maybe even longer I guess....do you think that there were any rape victims that became arahants?....almost assuredly there were...and presumably at the time of the rape they were not already benefiting fromt the Buddha's teachings but then at some later time found his teachings beneficial and relevnt....I guess this disproves your idea.....
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby chownah » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:54 pm

PeterB wrote:Emerging stats show that a high proportion of women are abused. Many spend lives affected by that to a greater or lesser degree.
Of those abused only a miority end up with professional help. Usually because they develop substance abuse habits.
Rape of the kind described is even more traumatic for a child. Familial abuse is bad enough but is not normally violent. Where violence is present too the abuse is even more traumatic.
Chownah I think it behoves all of us when speaking of matters beyond our experience to ensure that we have our brains in gear..not just our mouths.

Peter8,
I agree with this completely ....you and I should both think about our ideas before we post...I always do and I hope you do to....thanks for the friendly reminder.

Please stop trying to marginalize my views by insinuating that things are beyond my experience....there is nothing more dangerous than an expert who thinks they know all the answer.

Speaking of "beyond our experience"....the facts of just what happened to the little girl and the van driver is something that is almost entirely "beyond our experience"....and to make matters worse the original post seems to have made some factual errors in describing what transpired. I looked at the links presented and the only one which actually describes anything about what happened is a short video containing an account given by the assistant principal of the kindergarten where the van was parked when the alleged rape took place. I'll give a condensed account: 1. The teachers were informed that a man and a girl were in a van and the man was acting suspiciously and that they should watch the van. 2. ONE (only one) of the teachers ran to the assistant principals office claiming that the man was trying to kiss the girl and they should do something to intervent. 3. The teachers started screaming to passers by to stop what was going on. 4. The passerbys heard the teachers screaming and intervened.

The original post claimed that the girl was screaming.....I don't know where this came from because I could not find any mention of this anywhere. I certainly don't know exactly what happened but so far the evidence is that one and only one teacher thought she saw the man trying to kiss the girl and her excited (perhaps hysterical....perhaps not) response that something had to be done and the precipitation of a bunch of screaming teachers convinced the passersby that something terrible was about to happen.....this entire thing could have (but maybe was not) a case of one teacher misinterpreting the action of the van driver.....again let me be clear....I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED and from the evidence presented so far neither does anyone else here....the emotional reactions here are without a doubt (in my view) the product of deluded "self" making......the original poster wanted to know how to deal with this anger.....my view is to do ones best to follow the Buddha's advise to have no doctrine of self...as I have described earlier.

As you say only a small minority of abused women get professional "help" so I guess this is a strong indicator that we should not extrapolate from clinical populations to the general population.....do you agree....also.....you did not answer....is it possible for a 10 year old to completely recover from a rape?

You posted, "Rape of the kind described is even more traumatic for a child."....and just what kind of rape would this be....attempted kissing?...because so far that is the only description we have of the actual events.

You posted, "Where violence is present too the abuse is even more traumatic.".......of course this is true anything with violence is more traumatic than withour violence.....this does not however say anything about which is more treatable....being repeatedly victimized by a "loved one"....or being victimized one time by a stranger with violent aspects.....but you seem to want us to assume that the added trauma automatically presents a more difficult prognosis........maybe you should take your own advise about thinking before posting and start posting things that are actually to the point and not relying on stereotypical assumptions and generalisations....if you want to rely on case studies (as it seems sometimes) then you really need to advise us of the characteristics of the population and methods of treatment if you really want us to be able to make sense of your assertions...otherwise you are just relying on your "expertise" to convince us....and you know the Buddha taught to not belive things just because an expert claims them.....that's Buddhism....before comment please consder if Buddhism is beyond your experience..


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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:44 pm

chownah wrote:Speaking of "beyond our experience"....the facts of just what happened to the little girl and the van driver is something that is almost entirely "beyond our experience"....



I think members can only speak for themselves here.

As you say only a small minority of abused women get professional "help" so I guess this is a strong indicator that we should not extrapolate from clinical populations to the general population.....


Fact is, that many women who get raped don't even report it, equally few seek
professional help even if they need it.

It could actually be safe to say women who seek help are a positive selection.

Do you personally know anybody very well, who got raped? And who shared her heart with you?
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:24 pm

Annapurna wrote:
chownah wrote:Speaking of "beyond our experience"....the facts of just what happened to the little girl and the van driver is something that is almost entirely "beyond our experience"....



I think members can only speak for themselves here.

As you say only a small minority of abused women get professional "help" so I guess this is a strong indicator that we should not extrapolate from clinical populations to the general population.....


Fact is, that many women who get raped don't even report it, equally few seek
professional help even if they need it.

It could actually be safe to say women who seek help are a positive selection.

Do you personally know anybody very well, who got raped? And who shared her heart with you?

The little girl was in India (Ithink...but maybe it was Indonesia) and since I believe that none of the posters here was anywhere near the location of what happened I think it is safe to say that her experience (whatever that might be....so far the only evidence we have indicates that perhaps the van driver was trying to kiss her and a group of passersby intervened and it is likely that no actual rape occurred if you use the "penetration is necessary for rape" criteria.) is beyond our experience if you use the Theravada idea that experience consists of the six sense bases and their objects along with the associated consciousnesses.

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not when I say that we should generally not extrapolate from clinical populations to a general population of individuals.....this is a concept mostly used in experimental design so you might not be familiar with the concept as I am using it....that is to say that the usage here might be beyond your experience....if you are not sure of its meaning I will try an explanation but only if you ask for it because it will probably be boring and off topic unless one is interested....although with a good explanation its meaning is not so difficult I think.

chownah

a quick edit.....I just looked and the tex of the report indicates that the girl was screaming but the teachers who summoned help did not report that the girl was screaming but that THEY were screaming to a passerby who heard their screams and detained the suspect...so there is some basis for a belief that the girl was screaming although seems like the principal's account is more credible and that the newspaper reporter got it wrong and misinterpreted a "I heard the screaming" as coming from the girl when it was probably coming from the teachers...or maybe when the girl heard the teachers screaming then she started screaming.....not enough evidence for a clear understanding of just what happened.....yet many have already manifest the intention to harm or even kill the suspect...a good example of how "self" making leads us to dukkha in my view.

chownah
Last edited by chownah on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:02 pm

The little girl was in India (Ithink...but maybe it was Indonesia) and since I believe that none of the posters here was anywhere near the location of what happened I think it is safe to say that her experience ....is beyond our experience


I think the location, -India, Asia or Europe- is irrelevant, what matters is the damage to mind and body and the mind and body of an Asian girl is not different from a European or Russian girl.

None of them grows up getting taught it is harmless when a stranger infamizes them in one way or another.
I would have ben gravely shocked if alone with an old man in a bus and he tries to kiss me, yuk. Oh, man, I would have been petrified, screaming for my mom and dad.



I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not when I say that we should generally not extrapolate from clinical populations to a general population of individuals.....this is a concept mostly used in experimental design so you might not be familiar with the concept as I am using it...


True, I know the argumentation, but perhaps you can also follow my line of thinking here? Clinical, what does that mean to you? Hospitalized or also ambulant patients?

I would assume that most rape victims attend ambulant therapy and self help groups...
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:23 pm

Annapurna wrote:
The little girl was in India (Ithink...but maybe it was Indonesia) and since I believe that none of the posters here was anywhere near the location of what happened I think it is safe to say that her experience ....is beyond our experience


I think the location, -India, Asia or Europe- is irrelevant, what matters is the damage to mind and body and the mind and body of an Asian girl is not different from a European or Russian girl.

None of them grows up getting taught it is harmless when a stranger infamizes them in one way or another.
I would have ben gravely shocked if alone with an old man in a bus and he tries to kiss me, yuk. Oh, man, I would have been petrified, screaming for my mom and dad.



I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not when I say that we should generally not extrapolate from clinical populations to a general population of individuals.....this is a concept mostly used in experimental design so you might not be familiar with the concept as I am using it...


True, I know the argumentation, but perhaps you can also follow my line of thinking here? Clinical, what does that mean to you? Hospitalized or also ambulant patients?

I would assume that most rape victims attend ambulant therapy and self help groups...

I edited my post after you posted...sorry that you didn't see it.....so far we do not know if girl was damaged at all....you IMAGINE that she is damaged but really you don't know...you are construeing what happened...it is a product of your brain....you have constructed an imaginary self of a little girl and you are putting your ideas into that self....this is NOT the little girl in Indonesia...it is the imaginary little girl in your head....we all do this...many of the posters have done this for not only the girl but also the suspect.....because they have constructed such a dispicable image of the suspect they now have fabaricated intentions to harm and/or kill.....this is often referred to as really bad kamma....what is so strange is that this "self" making and intent to harm is exactly what rapists do....people who hate rapists are subject to almost the same delusional intentions as the rapists...only their methods vary!!!! (in my view).

Clinical population as I am using it means a group of people being treated and whose information (or data) is being used collectively in a study. In presenting a study this would be defined and explained...for instance a study might say that the study was of all female patients who attended the nail biting clinic at zaxz hospital from Oct 31, 2000 until April 1, 2002. More specifically...a therapist should not extrapolate their experiences in treating their clients to be representative of a general population.....in experimental design we would say that a therapists practice is not a random sample and so can not be validly used to make inference to a general population.

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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:35 pm

You also didn't see I was still editing mine... :smile:

so far we do not know if girl was damaged at all....you IMAGINE that she is damaged but really you don't know...you are construeing what happened...it is a product of your brain....you have constructed an imaginary self of a little girl and you are putting your ideas into that self


Not at all.

I am responding to what the headmistress reported: that a girl was attacked by a man while alone in a bus with him that was observed for e several days in the neighborhood. .

She was struggling and screaming, so it must have felt serious to her.

Passengers or staff came to help her, so it must have appeared serious to them.

The police locked him up for a bit, so it must have felt serious to them. But perhaps he had just intended a little joke with his candid camera, no pun intended...

Who knows?

The topic is: How do we respond to this as Buddhists?

Do we try to trivialize it? V Blow it out of proportion?

Speculate on the sensation?

Do we have compassion?

For the girl?

For the man?

For both?
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:39 pm

I'm done with this topic, it's run it's course imo and is going in circles.
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby chownah » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:50 pm

Annapurna wrote:I'm done with this topic, it's run it's course imo and is going in circles.

Please before you go tell me where you got that the girl was screaming and struggling....none of this was reported by the eyewitness school principal...and I don't recall any mention of the girl struggleing.....seems like this is once again just a figment of your imagination....where does it say she was struggling?...other than in your head....this is what I've been trying to talk about......you are not talking about the girl is Indonesia...you are talking about a little girl in your imagination.....you have made up a "self" of a little girl based on scant evidence from an internet website and alot of embellishment from your own past...it is probably more accurate to say that YOU are the little girl than it is to say that it has anything to do with some girl on the other side of the world.

Also, what I am saying is directly to the point of the topic of this thread (which most posters seem to have abandoned or for some not even ever addressed) which is as Buddhists how can we deal with the strong emotional reactions which happen when hearing about rape etc. Seems like one way we can deal with this is to first realize that the strong emotional reaction is a product of our own mind and that its focus is not some "self" of a person who did the deed (the suspect) but rather it is focused on an imaginary "self" we have constructed mentally using things from our past experiences....you many think that this is just my view and you would be correct about this.....what one really needs to do is to go study the Buddha's teachings, try some stuff out, and find out for yourself how it works.

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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:13 pm

Chownah,

you avoided answering my question if you know somebody who got raped personally and so well, that you have had confidential-conversations with somebody traumatized.

That the girl was screaming was said in the text.

you are talking about a little girl in your imagination.....you have made up a "self" of a little girl based on scant evidence from an internet website and alot of embellishment from your own past...it is probably more accurate to say that YOU are the little girl than it is to say that it has anything to do with some girl on the other side of the world.


I wish you would stop becoming personal, and assume things about me.

Your assumptions about me are what you are making up in your imagination although it is not hard for me to put myself into the situation of others.


Luckily, my childhood was safe.

But I know several women -very well--who were not as fortunate.
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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:59 pm

Annapurna wrote:Do we have compassion?

For the girl?

For the man?

For both?

Both.

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Re: Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:36 pm

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If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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