Buddhist response to a monstrous act of rape?

[Annapurna]

Finding compassion for him, a good practice.

I agree. Think about how messed up his mind must be, and how terrible it must be to live with such a mind.

Mike

I'd be surprised if all encompassing compassion wasn't already agreed here.

[Annapurna]

Once I was in my car and drove by a man who punched a car's window with his bare hand, shattering the window, he then pulled out a woman from the car and started punching her faced and pushing her around. I stopped my car, alked out and strated shouting and the guy ordering him to stop, and placed myself in front of the woman to prevent him from punching her again, he looked surprised, stopped and walked away. Then he came back and said he was going to break my face and grabbed my cloths with one hand while closing his fist with the other. I calmly told him that if he wanted a fight he was going to fight with himself, because I was not going to respond, and that I was not afraid of a guy who beats up women. I guess I got lucky and he walked away.

Wow, Rui Sousa, if you're a guy, you're a real man.

My respect.

Courage scares cowards.

I have had other similar experiences, and I have managed not to let anger control my actions, even if it is there, but still being able to prevent A from hurting B. No anger, no fear and enough imagination to see a way out without aggression.

So I don't see it absolutely necessary to respond with aggression to prevent aggression.

Yep.

I would still be mentally prepared for the case where only a quick forceful action can precent many deaths, as in the case of a terroris about to strike.

I would intend to leave him unconscious, but not dead.

If he dies though, he brought it upon himself.

Wouldn't have happeped playing with kittens.

[Rui Sousa]

I would still be mentally prepared for the case where only a quick forceful action can precent many deaths, as in the case of a terroris about to strike.

I would intend to leave him unconscious, but not dead.

If he dies though, he brought it upon himself.

Wouldn't have happeped playing with kittens.

This thread has left me a bit worried, because I feel we are focusing too much in extreme actions such as killing to prevent something from happening. I believe that scenario makes very a small percentage of the cases we will hopefully face in our lives. Instead of setting our minds to kill if necessary, isn't it more in line with the teaching to set our mind to avoid the necessity of killing, trusting in our abilities to deal with problems in other ways?

Yesterday I was arriving home and had to wait for a minute or two to enter home because there was an ant's path between me and my garage door, I couldn't kill the ants, so I waited until there was a gap and then moved the bike inside. I believe that was a nice thing to do for the ants, a kind of civil neighbouring. But if I train myself to kill if necessary I would just run over them because they were on my way, and I had no intention of killing them then, wouldn't I be justifying the unjustifiable?

[Annapurna]

My reply is that I would gladly tell the girl......unless she has been brain washed by society into thinking that she has been irrevocably damaged she is probably right now in her school yard playing skip rope or some other such fun childish pastime......she probably will have no lasting malaise.....unless of course society instills (as it almost always does) its fear and loathing into her psyche. A bad thing has happened to her.....bad things happen to alot of people and usually they recover quite nicely. The idea that this little girls will be tortured all her life by what happened to her is mostly just an idea in your head....it is the "self" that you have made up for her.....this deluded "self" is one example of why the Buddha advised us to have no doctrine of self....in my view.
chownah

Chownah,

You might of course lose a bit from that Buddhist Pollyannaism if your own daughter got raped...

[Annapurna]

I would still be mentally prepared for the case where only a quick forceful action can precent many deaths, as in the case of a terroris about to strike.

I would intend to leave him unconscious, but not dead.

If he dies though, he brought it upon himself.

Wouldn't have happpened playing with kittens.

This thread has left me a bit worried, because I feel we are focusing too much in extreme actions such as killing to prevent something from happening. I believe that scenario makes very a small percentage of the cases we will hopefully face in our lives. Instead of setting our minds to kill if necessary, isn't it more in line with the teaching to set our mind to avoid the necessity of killing, trusting in our abilities to deal with problems in other ways?

Yesterday I was arriving home and had to wait for a minute or two to enter home because there was an ant's path between me and my garage door, I couldn't kill the ants, so I waited until there was a gap and then moved the bike inside. I believe that was a nice thing to do for the ants, a kind of civil neighbouring. But if I train myself to kill if necessary I would just run over them because they were on my way, and I had no intention of killing them then, wouldn't I be justifying the unjustifiable ?

This thread has left me a bit worried, because I feel we are focusing too much in extreme actions such as killing to prevent something from happening. Instead of setting our minds to kill if necessary, isn't it more in line with the teaching to set our mind to avoid the necessity of killing, trusting in our abilities to deal with problems in other ways?

Please don't worry. I don't think any of us is keen on killing. It is just about having a plan B, when plan A doesn't work

Of course plan A is to avoid violence, what else?

And A comes before B.

I believe that scenario makes very a small percentage of the cases we will hopefully face in our lives.

You actually never know. I never anticipated I would get into some of the extreme situations I got in, -I always thought:

This is the type of stuff that happens to others, but not to me.

Bullsh!t.

Yesterday I was arriving home and had to wait for a minute or two to enter home because there was an ant's path between me and my garage door, I couldn't kill the ants, so I waited until there was a gap and then moved the bike inside. I believe that was a nice thing to do for the ants, a kind of civil neighbouring. But if I train myself to kill if necessary I would just run over them because they were on my way, and I had no intention of killing them then, wouldn't I be justifying the unjustifiable ?

Of course that is a nice thing to do, but do you really think only you do?

It isn't necessary to kill ants on your path, why would it?

But it may be neccessary to throw a coke can at someone who wants to fire a gun into a crowd.

One is not a Buddhist hero when he allows that to happen.

[Vepacitta]

Aack! I can't get the damnable quote thing to work.

At any rate ...

Ben - thank you for your apology - damn good of you. However, I didn't feel targeted by you - it's kind of a typical "Buddhist" response (no I'm not trying to snark you). Interestingly, in a sutta study class, we got into this sort of discussion when we discussed the Simile of the Saw. There was no easy answer - but the Ven. told us about other thoughts from teachers and Buddhists he'd heard over the years - not that it was "ok" - but could be necessary (not exactly the right word but it was awhile back) at times - like the "Hitler" example. Sort of the "good of the many" type of thing (We need a Spock smiley). Normally, though, killing is a big no-no. But ... well ... you already know my but (no! not butt - but! )

I actually felt targeted by another person - but no matter - one can't convince everyone ...

[metta_noob]

here's an update ... he was charged in court ... http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... sec=courts

there's a little video on the page too ... also on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sgInxx4 ... r_embedded ... for a good look at the perp

I am a little disappointed that he's out on bail

[Rui Sousa]

Of course that is a nice thing to do, but do you really think only you do?

It isn't necessary to kill ants on your path, why would it?

But it may be neccessary to throw a coke can at someone who wants to fire a gun into a crowd.

One is not a Buddhist hero when he allows that to happen.

I was not trying to claim moral superiority, I was just giving an example of a real situation to express that we make decisions, and these decisions are conditioned by our previous mind moments.

Saying, as many have said on this thread, that they are mentally prepared to kill if necessary seems to me as putting another brick on the building that is that idea of killing, adding strength to the kammic bond that may lead to a future action of killing. I believe my action of not killing ants was conditioned by Metta meditation and my understanding of rebirth. And I am worried that stating a propensity for killing may set the conditions for great future suffering.

Did the Buddha teach to kill if necessary, in order to save a great number? I would love to see a Sutta reference that would provide some basis for such a statement. I don't think anyone on this thread as claimed that opinion to be based on the Suttas, people were expressing their personal opinions, but since the OP asked for a Buddhist response to a monstrous act, I think we should make it clear what is our understanding of the teaching and what are our personal opinions regardless of the teaching.

[Annapurna]

here's an update ... he was charged in court ... http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... sec=courts

there's a little video on the page too ... also on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sgInxx4 ... r_embedded ... for a good look at the perp

I am a little disappointed that he's out on bail

Imagine how traumatic it is for the girl and her family.

Actually, this happens quite often.

The result is, that victims are scared to leave the house.

They might meet him somewhere. Or worse, they are afraid he might attack them again, to silence the witness.

[chownah]

I am no psychologist, but I would agree. But at the same time, what Chownah has said as a response to a rape victim discounts it to the point of trivialization. They are the two extremes, FNA.

Ben

Ben,
I would like to know what you think I said "as a response to a rape victim".....in as exact a wording as possible.....I don't recall having crafted a response....
chownah

To all my Dhamma Friends here........thank you so much for your honest opinions....I have learned alot about my Dhamma Friends here in reading your replies.
chownah

[PeterB]

and beleive me they learned much more about you.

[chownah]

My reply is that I would gladly tell the girl......unless she has been brain washed by society into thinking that she has been irrevocably damaged she is probably right now in her school yard playing skip rope or some other such fun childish pastime......she probably will have no lasting malaise.....unless of course society instills (as it almost always does) its fear and loathing into her psyche. A bad thing has happened to her.....bad things happen to alot of people and usually they recover quite nicely. The idea that this little girls will be tortured all her life by what happened to her is mostly just an idea in your head....it is the "self" that you have made up for her.....this deluded "self" is one example of why the Buddha advised us to have no doctrine of self....in my view.
chownah

Chownah,

You might of course lose a bit from that Buddhist Pollyannaism if your own daughter got raped...

Annapurna,
You are probably wrong about this......this is the way I live my life......the Buddha taught that we should have no doctrine of self whatever and I am doing my best to realize this in my life and to discuss what I see as different aspects of this teaching with others so that we might gain a better understanding. In my life when I feel hatred or disgust toward someone I often stop and reflect on my attitude as one more instance of creating a doctrine of self....a doctrine of self towards that person......I remind myself of the Buddha's teachings that everything happens because of conditions and this reminds me that what I see as unsatisfactory in that other person is a result of conditions and not a result of any "self" which I might construe. I thought that people understood how this works but I guess I was wrong.....and believe me it does really work....the conditions which created the hatred or disgust can perhaps be viewed more clearly and the stress which those emotions create fades away......in my view this is what victims need to learn....in my view this is what we all need to learn......seems like a good thing to me but then this is all only my view....
chownah

[chownah]

and beleive me they learned much more about you.

Good....I'm glad that people understand me better......by the way....do you cure many of those abused people you talked about?....perhaps "cure" is not the right word....or maybe it is....I don't know. In your view is it possible that someone can be raped at a young age and then recover completely?....or not?
chownah

[PeterB]

Generally not. By anyone..there is always a residue. Most people can be helped to manage their reactions over time.
It is easy to assume that concepts like anatta mean that human beings are insensitive machines.
In fact our emotional well being is as sensitive and as vulnerable as our eyesight, particular when prepubescent.
I would guess that a good 30% of my female clients have been sexually abused..whatever the reason for their referral to me and my colleagues. Whether its depression or substance abuse or whatever.
Much of that abuse is from within their own families.

[chownah]

Generally not. By anyone..there is always a residue. Most people can be helped to manage their reactions over time.
It is easy to assume that concepts like anatta mean that human beings are insensitive machines.
In fact our emotional well being is as sensitive and as vulnerable as our eyesight, particular when prepubescent.
I would guess that a good 30% of my female clients have been sexually abused..whatever the reason for their referral to me and my colleagues. Whether its depression or substance abuse or whatever.
Much of that abuse is from within their own families.

Well, its not easy for me to assume that concepts like anatta mean that human beings are insensitive machines but I will admit that some of the posts which were more or less directed at me did give me the momentary delusion that many of the posters here are. I got really reacted at first and then realized that it was conditions which created my reaction and not the "selves" which my delusion had concocted for those posters....as usual the relief was quick in coming....

I guess in your practice you see some of the worst cases of sexual abuse....it seems that you would get the people who are most negatively reacted from the experience....if this is correct then your clients should probably not be taken as an indicator of the condition of the entire population of abused people....or at least what I have learned about statistics would seem to indicate this....your practice should not be viewed as a valid sample of the population as a whole....I guess. Seems to me that you have been representing your practice as how we should view abused people in general....whereas your practice only deals with the worst cases with the most negatively reacted people I guess. Also, I guess then that the experiences from your practice do not necessarily apply to the little girl....especially since this is not a case of familial abuse.

chownah

[PeterB]

Emerging stats show that a high proportion of women are abused. Many spend lives affected by that to a greater or lesser degree.
Of those abused only a miority end up with professional help. Usually because they develop substance abuse habits.
Rape of the kind described is even more traumatic for a child. Familial abuse is bad enough but is not normally violent. Where violence is present too the abuse is even more traumatic.
Chownah I think it behoves all of us when speaking of matters beyond our experience to ensure that we have our brains in gear..not just our mouths.

[Annapurna]

My reply is that I would gladly tell the girl......unless she has been brain washed by society into thinking that she has been irrevocably damaged she is probably right now in her school yard playing skip rope or some other such fun childish pastime......she probably will have no lasting malaise.....unless of course society instills (as it almost always does) its fear and loathing into her psyche. A bad thing has happened to her.....bad things happen to alot of people and usually they recover quite nicely. The idea that this little girls will be tortured all her life by what happened to her is mostly just an idea in your head....it is the "self" that you have made up for her.....this deluded "self" is one example of why the Buddha advised us to have no doctrine of self....in my view.
chownah

Chownah,

You might of course lose a bit from that Buddhist Pollyannaism if your own daughter got raped...

Annapurna,
You are probably wrong about this......this is the way I live my life......the Buddha taught that we should have no doctrine of self whatever and I am doing my best to realize this in my life and to discuss what I see as different aspects of this teaching with others so that we might gain a better understanding. In my life when I feel hatred or disgust toward someone I often stop and reflect on my attitude as one more instance of creating a doctrine of self....a doctrine of self towards that person......I remind myself of the Buddha's teachings that everything happens because of conditions and this reminds me that what I see as unsatisfactory in that other person is a result of conditions and not a result of any "self" which I might construe. I thought that people understood how this works but I guess I was wrong.....and believe me it does really work....the conditions which created the hatred or disgust can perhaps be viewed more clearly and the stress which those emotions create fades away......in my view this is what victims need to learn....in my view this is what we all need to learn......seems like a good thing to me but then this is all only my view....
chownah

What the Buddha taught can only be relevant and beneficial to those rape victims who are are benefitting from the Buddhas teachings, for the rest it is unfortunately useless.



Another aspect is, that we can analyse something in a rational way, but we can't tell our emotions what to do.

"Sit".

"Disappear".

It doesn't work.

Even if physical wounds have healed, emotional wounds will remain.

Rape is often not about sex, but sex a means to exert power, to humiliate, to punish, and to seek revenge.

The humiliation that is felt by a female victim is often extremely hard to understand for a man, because he finds nothing to compare it to.

For her, (ideally) her genital organs are there for someone she loves and admires, a partner. She trusts him not to hurt her, and any man can hurt a woman with his penis, unless it's a very small one.

If a woman is raped, then usually by someone who is beneath her and whom she would refuse to have sex with.

To be entered by such a man constitutes the gravest humiliation a woman can experience.

Some women start questioning themselves, like if they were not careful enough, dressed in the wrong way, or walked in a wrong area alone.

This leads to a loss of trust in herself and in all other men.

This is a grave loss of liberty, joy of life, , but none of this is her fault.

It is only and alone the rapists fault.

Even for Buddhist women it may not be all that easy to process this in a way that will allow her not to see a potential rapist in each man she is alone with in an elevator, a street, or a bus.

[Alex123]

As a Buddhist, I am against violence.

It is wrong to hurt another being, period. Preventative action at killing him is wrong. The End does not justify the means. There is no skillful violence ever.
I feel sorry for those who start pre-emptive war in under disguise of "err on the side of life".


One day one applies violence to defend someone, one accumulates bad kamma, and will suffer as a result. It is directly or indirectly due to Kamma that someone suffers. There is no Self that can prevent kamma from ripening, thus no self to prevent from rape. So perhaps there is no totally inocent victim, to say so is to deny Kamma.

What about simile of the saw? Or Dhammapada verse about "hatred is not stoped by hatred"?


Myself I am not perfect, yet. Perfection will come when I can be at peace and send metta even when hit by an enemy for whom I should feel metta and compassion.

The aggressor is also a victim. He must have been suffering very much, not to mention the future suffering that he will get.

ßAgain Pagguna, if anyone beat those bhikkhunis with their hands or with clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should train as above. Again Phagguna, if anyone blames you in the face, you should train as above. If anyone beats you with hands, or clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should give up that worldly interest and worldly thoughts. Phagguna, there you should train like this: `My mind will not change, I will not utter evil words, I will abide with compassion and loving kindness, without an angry thought'.û
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html

Life sucks big time. The body (which is produced by Kamma) can get raped, tortured mutilated and killed. It is just nature. To ignore this is called delusion.

[Rui Sousa]

From the Kodhana Sutta AN 7.60 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.060.than.html):

An angry person is ugly & sleeps poorly. Gaining a profit, he turns it into a loss, having done damage with word & deed. A person overwhelmed with anger destroys his wealth. Maddened with anger, he destroys his status. Relatives, friends, & colleagues avoid him. Anger brings loss. Anger inflames the mind. He doesn't realize that his danger is born from within. An angry person doesn't know his own benefit. An angry person doesn't see the Dhamma. A man conquered by anger is in a mass of darkness. He takes pleasure in bad deeds as if they were good, but later, when his anger is gone, he suffers as if burned with fire. He is spoiled, blotted out, like fire enveloped in smoke. When anger spreads, when a man becomes angry, he has no shame, no fear of evil, is not respectful in speech. For a person overcome with anger, nothing gives light.

I'll list the deeds that bring remorse, that are far from the teachings. Listen! An angry person kills his father, kills his mother, kills Brahmans & people run-of-the-mill.

It's because of a mother's devotion that one sees the world, yet an angry run-of-the-mill person can kill this giver of life. Like oneself, all beings hold themselves most dear, yet an angry person, deranged, can kill himself in many ways: with a sword, taking poison, hanging himself by a rope in a mountain glen. Doing these deeds that kill beings and do violence to himself, the angry person doesn't realize that he's ruined. This snare of Mara, in the form of anger, dwelling in the cave of the heart: cut it out with self-control, discernment, persistence, right view. The wise man would cut out each & every form of unskillfulness. Train yourselves: 'May we not be blotted out.' Free from anger & untroubled, free from greed, without longing, tamed, your anger abandoned, free from fermentation, you will be unbound.

[Vepacitta]

Annapurna -